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| WomanSaver's Forum |
| Topic: Classic Excuses for Cheating
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| Subject: Classic Excuses for Cheating - Posted: 10/31/2006 7:23:51 AM
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I didn‘t see this on the list of excuses.
But then again...i sought reasons...not excuses.
Sounding Circle: The Casanova Complex
Also known as the Madonna/Whore Complex...
| The Casanova Complex |
0 comments | |
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12 May 2005 @ 17:07, by Raymond Powers
http://soundingcircle.com/newslog2.php/__show_article/_a000195-000673.htm
The Casanova Complex and the Women Who Love Them
Peter Trachtenburg
Book summarized by Lynne Namka
Writer Peter Trachtenburg surveyed many men who admitted to having
affairs and came up with patterns of emptiness in men who could not be
faithful. The Casanova Complex of having affairs is more than a way
of acting sexually--it is sexual addiction where a major portion of
time the man‘s time is spent thinking about and pursuing sexual
activities. Trachtenburg, who says he has this disorder says, "Any
behavior that is used to anesthized pain is likely to become
addictive." The need to womanize is a disorder of the feelings
characterized by a man‘s compulsive and addictive--pursuit and
abandonment of women or by symbolic flight through infidelity and
multiple relationships."
The man who has sexual addiction cannot allow feeling the deep pain
within and his primary drug of choice becomes women. In this sexual
addiction, the man sees women as good and bad--Madonna‘s and whores.
In the chase of the new partner, he longs for the good mother. As the
relationship cools, she becomes the castrating mother. After the
chase and catch, he must discard her when the threat to himself
becomes too great as he cannot deal with intimacy. Ongoing affairs
are a pattern of conquering and manipulating women.
According to Trachtenburg, there is an underlying personality
disorder of narcissism in these men. In the early years there may
have been a devouring, nonnuturing, rejecting mother and an
ineffectual, emotionally distant father. The child‘s ego splits into
two parts: (1) A false self which meets the parent‘s approval because
the child is complaint and becomes a little adult meeting the demands
of the dysfunctional system. (2) The true self of the child gives up
and is withdrawn inward.
As the boy grows up he seeks girls and women with haste and an
intense courtship. Men with sexual addictions can be very charming,
highly romantic and are masters of instant intimacy. This instant
intimacy makes the woman feel special, singled out and valued giving
them a rush... The hurry gives the man a relationship rush. The man
needs to cement the liaison quickly as he knows that the "bloom" will
fade soon. There is emotional fusion due to sharing the erotic
excitement and the pseudo-opening of the self.
The man sets up a dependence on the woman for nurturance, acceptance
and excitement. His relationship with the primary woman (usually his
wife) in his life becomes symbiotic. He fears fusion or being sucked
into the woman. Affairs are seen as the means of escaping commitment
and the sense of being smothered and consumed by the wife. There may
be fear of his becoming femininized so he must act out sexually to
prove his masculinity. The man flees intimacy and he is frightened of
vulnerability. He is afraid of being truly himself with another human
being. He is incapable of being himself and has a damaged capacity
for connecting on a deep level in a long term relationship. Intimacy
feels like being devoured by the woman. He feels invaded, possessed.
Normal requests by the woman are seen as demands. The man must
withdraw quickly to protect his fragile ego so that he does not get
burned, leaving behind a string of broken hearts.
Mutual Complicity in the Marriage --Let‘s Agree This Isn‘t Happening
When the affairs start in a marriage, the man will often deny any
wrong doing. The system is a closed one of complicity. After the
wife initially confronts the man, she turns to not seeing the
continual infidelity as a way of coping with the truth. She
compromises herself and increases the rift of communication between
them. Silence and feelings of deep shame build and both agree to keep
the family secrets of dysfunction. Both man and wife avoid conflict
around the issue and the husband is protected by nondisclosure. There
is mutual complicity--both agree not to talk about it or turn it over
for problem solving.
There may be a policing stage on the wife‘s part where she tries to
monitor and check up. There may be anger at the other woman instead
of looking at the relationship realistically and see the
irresponsibility of the man. The wife may try to appease and win back
the man‘s flagging interest in her, but no matter what she does, she
cannot change his sexual addiction. She may revert back to childhood
roles of helplessness and powerlessness to leave the relationship.
She needs to be needed. She denies the pain of her own childhood.
She confuses her own desire for dependence and the need to be needed.
Her rescuing behaviors are merely attempts to control the situation.
Some of the children in the family pick up this pattern and then act
them out in their adult lives. Others marry partners with the sexual
acting out pattern. Sexual addiction is thus passed as a pattern to
the younger generations.
Trachtenburg spends the rest of the book describing how a man can get
out of sexual addiction through admitting his problem and making the
decision to address it by attending a 12 step program and confronting
the addiction.
<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<:::>><<::
Dr. Patrick Carnes‘ Resources for Sex Addiction & Recovery...
Patrick Carnes is an international authority of sexual addiction at
The Meadows, a recovery treatment center here in Arizona. The
following are a series of statements which describe traumatic bonding
in which a person bonds with an unfaithful or abusive partner on the
basis of betrayal. This unhealthy pattern is what Patrick Carnes calls
a "Betrayal Bond".
The "Betrayal Bond" Index
(Here are the first 15 of the 30 Question Quiz)
Yes No Do you obsess about people who have hurt you even through
they are long gone?
Yes No Do you continue to seek contact with people whom you know
will cause you further pain?
Yes No Do you go "overboard" to help people who have been
destructive to you?
Yes No Do you continue to be a "team" member when obviously things
are becoming destructive?
Yes No Do you continue attempts to get people to like you who are
clearly using you?
Yes No Do you trust people again and again who are proven to be
unreliable?
Yes No Are you unable to retreat from unhealthy relationships?
Yes No Do you try to be understood by those who clearly do not
care?
Yes No Do you choose to stay in conflict with others when it would
cost you nothing to walk away?
Yes No Do you persist in trying to convince people that there is a
problem and they are not willing to listen?
Yes No Are you loyal to people who have betrayed you?
Yes No Do you attract untrustworthy people?
Yes No Have you kept damaging secrets about exploitation or abuse?
Yes No Do you continue contact with an abuser who acknowledges no
responsibility?
Yes No Do you find yourself covering up, defending, or explaining
a relationship?
| | Playedhard
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| Topic: Caught Him...So Why Can‘t I Walk Away....
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| Subject: Caught Him...So Why Can‘t I Walk Away.... - Posted: 10/31/2006 8:24:00 AM
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| 2trusting wrote: | But for a few minutes it is putting a smile on my face. Just thought I would share.... |
Sometimes...that is all we get 2Trusting...Enjoy it!
I think it is brave of you to admit what you did. I have done worse in the name of "Childish Vindication"!Don‘t feel too judged for REACTING in a SMALL way in comparison to his MISDEEDS against YOU! There will come a time when the shock of how this man has disrespected you wears off a bit...in the meantime..do yourself a HUGE FAVOR...Take the HIGH road out from this point on...There‘s no need for you to stoop to his level...He will get his JUST rewards.And you are FREE of an obvious Narcissist.
Count your blessing you didn‘t commit to him yet!
And when you tell you daughter he is gone, don‘t let his FASCADE of love tear her apart.OR YOURSELF...Let her know...he isn‘t CAPABLE of loving anyone..and it is not personal.
The days may seem long now...but in reality, he just did YOU the biggest favor of your life.
He gave you an easy WAY OUT...Some women aren‘t that lucky!
BTW...How‘s the weather up there in Malden? I was from Dartmouth..But moved to the South...The men up there are WAY too COLD FOR ME....Not to mention the weather...lol.Heard it got rough up there over the weekend..STAY warm and dry and SAFE and AWAY from that moron who is beneath you!
playedhard
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| Topic: Caught Him...So Why Can‘t I Walk Away....
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| Subject: Caught Him...So Why Can‘t I Walk Away.... - Posted: 11/2/2006 8:08:17 AM
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| 2trusting wrote: | Well, after a year and a half of putting up with this crap, I broke it off with him. I hadn‘t talked to him in a couple of days...just ignoring his phone calls.
Well, my heart is broken right now and I can‘t stop crying....but I have been through this crap before and I know I am strong and I know I will survive. |
UPDATE....She left him...YEAH!! FOR HER!!!
AND she is off LIVING her life with her daughter.( My 13 year old son was a Penguin..for Halloween...LOL)..AND SHE IS NOT being a justifiably VINDICTIVE EX!!!
THAT is one of the hardest parts...and i HATE to hear anyone be judged for REACTING nornally to ABNORMAL BEHAVIORS!
UGGGG!
So...Here‘s a BIG CONGRATULATIONS for not turning a BLIND EYE!And for NOT feeling responsibile for warning anyone. We are all on our own..and must be MOST concerned with our ownwell being. Contacting anyone he is messing with now personally will ONLYmake you look like the scorned lover..and THEY WILL lie anyways...so...why bother?
To a certain degree...Once a cheat always a cheat....And yes...there are GOOD MEN OUT THERE...Sometimes though...it takes changing out patterns to find them.
I know...i had to change my repetitive compulsion to ‘rescue‘ the EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE.They NEVER change.
It‘s OK to cry...this was humilating and it made you feel powerless. Let it out...and try to COUNT your blessings...he is gone. Let him think what he will...YOU know BETTER!
playedhard
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| Topic: WHY THEY ABUSE and WHY WE STAY
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| Subject: WHY THEY ABUSE and WHY WE STAY - Posted: 11/3/2006 5:18:49 AM
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http://mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=8482&cn=2
Why Do People Abuse?
The first question, "Why do people abuse other people?" has multiple answers. Some abusers learned to abuse from their parents. Their early history consisted of receiving abuse themselves and/or seeing others abused (one parent abusing the other or their sibling, etc.). As a consequence, abuse is the normal condition of life for these people. Such people internalized a particular relationship dynamic, namely the complementary roles of "abuser" and "victim". They are familiar with and fully understand the terror of being the helpless victim from their own childhood experience. The opposite of being a victim is not simply opting out of abuse; it is instead, to be abusive. Given the choice between being the out-of-control victim, or the in-control abuser, some of these people grow up to prefer the role of the abuser. As they become adults, they simply turn this relationship dynamic around and start acting out the "abuser" side of the relationship dynamic they have learned. By choosing to be the aggressor and abuser, they may get their first sense of taking control over their own destiny and not being at the mercy of others. That they hurt others in the process may go unregistered or only occur as a dim part of their awareness.
Abusive behavior can also result from mental health issues or disorders. For example, someone with anger management issues, a diagnosis of intermittent explosive disorder, or a drinking or drug problem may easily get out of control during arguments (e.g., because there is something wrong with their ability to inhibit themselves at the brain level) and verbally or physically strike out at their partners and dependents.
Still other people who abuse end up abusing because they have an empathy deficit, either because of some sort of brain damage, or because they were so abused themselves as children that their innate empathic abilities never developed properly. Such abusers cannot or will not relate to other people as people, choosing instead to treat them as objects. In effect, they confuse people for things. They treat people as though they were there solely for their convenience and do not otherwise have an independent, important life. Abusers who treat people in this manner are very likely psychologically ill, and possibly medically ill as well. They may have an antisocial (sociopathic, psychopathic) or narcissistic personality disorder, and they may have anger or impulse control issues and substance abuse issues on top of that! Such people may abuse because of the benefits they receive from doing so, for instance, sexual or financial gratification, or the simple allure of power over other people‘s lives.
Why Do Adults Stay In Abusive Relationships?
The second question, "Why Do Adults Stay In Abusive Relationships?" is also somewhat complex to understand. Partners in abusive relationships have varying reasons for remaining in them. A first layer of the reasons for staying in an abusive relationship is practical, even if they are not always rational. Some abused people feel they cannot leave their relationships because they are economically dependent on them. For instance, an abused stay-at-home mother may feel that she cannot leave her abusive relationship because if she did, she would have no way of providing for her children. Other abused people stay because they believe that is the proper thing to do, given their religious or cultural background. Some practicing Catholic people, for example, believe that divorce is a bad thing to be avoided at most all costs. They may be motivated to put up with a lot of spousal abuse because the alternative is to go against the teachings of their church. Still other abused people may rationalize staying in abusive relationships because they think it is the right thing to do for their children. They might say to themselves, "If it was just me, I‘d leave this marriage, but my children will be better off coming from an intact home than from a divorced one". This may not be a rational position to take in all cases; the children may be in fact far more damaged by staying in proximity to an abusive father than they would be by being raised by a single mother. However, regardless of the truth of any of these rationalizations, the believe that they are true is more powerful than whether or not they are really true.
A second layer of reasons for why people stay in abusive relationships is uncovered by learning about the so-called "cycle of abuse." In a typical instance of domestic abuse (where one partner is abusive towards the other), abuse tends to occur periodically (cyclically), rather than constantly (all the time). There is no clear beginning to the cycle of abuse, but for purposes of describing it, we can start at an arbitrary stage along its progression. Something event occurs, whether real or only imagined by the abuser, that generates feelings of anger or even rage. These feelings then lead to the second stage of the cycle, which is where the actual abusive behavior occurs. Such behavior may be verbal, physical, emotional/mental, or sexual in nature. If the cycle stopped here and stayed constant, most victims would find it very easy to leave and not endure abuse for long periods of time. However, shortly after the abusive event occurs, the abuser frequently expresses remorse or guilt and wants to apologize. The abuser will swear, "It will never happen again" and may shower the victim with gifts and demands that the victim forgive him or her. There may be so-called "makeup sex" which can be quite pleasurable and provide the victim with a sense that he or she is valued, and really loved. In a parent/child abusive relationship, guilt over abuse may be expressed as special privileges or gifts for the child victim. Following the guilt and making up stage comes a "honeymoon" or latency period during which things are good for a while between the partners. Inevitably, in truly abusive relationships, the latency period ends with the beginning of another abuse episode; the abuser again feels angry, disrespected or treated poorly in some way and the cycle starts all over again.
Why Do People Abuse?
CenterSite
Understanding Abuse
People have difficulty understanding the motives of people who are involved in abuse. Why people choose to abuse other people is a common question. Why (adult) people who are being abused choose to stay in abusive relationships is another. Neither of these questions have easy answers and even the strongest attempt to educate yourself as to why people might make these seemingly irrational choices will not lead to complete understanding. Abuse situations must be lived in and experienced before their internal logic makes any sense. However, we can try to do our best to understand.
Basic Information
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| Topic: I don‘t know what to do.
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| Subject: I don‘t know what to do. - Posted: 11/3/2006 5:39:06 AM
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| confused01 wrote: | | My husband punched me fo the first time he had slapped me before but never this.. |
Without sounding judgemental...I have to ask you...Is slapping O.K. with you?
It sounds as if it is.And now that he has actually punched you...you aren‘t sure what to do about his abuse.ABUSE IS ABUSE. Verbal, emotional, physical, sexual.You have learned to minimize the pain he causes you in an attempt to keep your family together.Without knowing your history, but assuming that you have been conditioned to accept this type of behavior thanks to your past,you have to stop and ask yourself...do you really want your daughter and/of son to grow up to think that this is acceptable? Being an abuser or a victim of one starts ata VERY young age. We are conditioned to tolerate less than we are worthy of in our childhoods. Staying with this man, who by the way seems to be a classic case of intermittant positive reinforcer, and it seems to me that you are Betrayal Bonded to him, will only make your children think that this is the WAY RELATIONSHIPS WORK.
If you won‘t leave BEFORE he hits you again, which you have read WILL happen...for your own well being..Be aware, you are NOT doing your children ANY FAVORS by exposing them to this type of situation.Even IF he never hits them..HE IS HITTING YOU!I am sure you have enough guilt and shame for having stayed up to this point.And i dont want to add more. But the thing is...if you are willing to tolerate being slapped, why not punched?Why not VERBALLY abused, why not cheated on why not forced into sex ...etc...
Because DEEP DOWN..you KNOW this man doesn‘t love you and you think by staying...he will one day...He won‘t. He can‘t. He is taking his anger out on you.And he may be "sweet" in between the abuse..but has he STOPPED? Has he gone to therapy to CHANGE his ways? Has he entered into Anger management assessment? How serious do you think he TAKES YOU at this point, after the abuse you have already tolerated?
You can‘t complain about abuse and stay.It is in YOUR HANDS as to what happens from this point on. You can‘t BLAME the abuser for what he does if you are willing to continue to tolerate it. When they "beg" for forgiveness...IT MEANS NOTHING.
What you feel is Malignant Optimism. Meaning..you are HOPING against the odds that he will change.YOU can only change ONE thing in this situation..HOW YOU REACT to his abuses.Not whether or not he will abuse you again....If you are not there...he can‘t.
Even if you leave for as long as it takes for him to recieve Therapy for his abusive NATURE...i know as i am sure you do underneath your fear of leaving him, that it is the ONLY thing you can do at this point. You confusion is more about FEAR of CHANGE...FEAR of being alone again. Fear of him not loving you.
Love never means hurting someone else.Nor does it do HIM any good for you to continue to turn a BLIND EYE to his past abuses.HE NEEDS HELP...and you LEAVING may be the one thing that saves him from himself.If not..what have you really lost but an abuser.
I wish you luck.I posted you a site that might help you understand WHY he abuses you and why you stay...think about your OPTIONS...Please...for your kids sakes at the very least.
You came here for advice...Will you TAKE IT is the question?Or continue to make excuses for his behaviors?
Playedhard
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| Topic: get a clue
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| Subject: get a clue - Posted: 4/25/2007 10:36:35 AM
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Here‘s anothor one..but guess what..these ladies are onto these guys...They call them CAKE MEN....and try to remind Ow‘s how POINTLESS it is to be involved with a MM...as they are LIARS, CHEATS and THIEVES OF HEARTS TO whomever dares trust them...
I say...KEEP ‘em if you want ‘em...
I‘m not into SNAKES in the Grass...
http://www.gloryb.com/
You know what i find odd...People who blame anyone other than the Cheater himself for the emotional damage he causes both his wife and the OW.
IMHO..BOTH women are merely USED by a Selfish little boy who wants it all.
I have to say...if husbands could keep it in thier pants...not a single wife would be betrayed nor an OW used in a passive aggressive attempt to defy commitment!
Anyone here ever heard of This?
http://soundingcircle.com/newslog2.php/__cat/_c2242/Sexuality
To some men...all we women are, are Madonna‘s and Whores....
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| Topic: Cakeman....
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| Subject: Cakeman.... - Posted: 4/26/2007 11:37:47 AM
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http://gloryb.com/articles/cakeman.html
Cakeman
Dr. Roger A. Rhoades
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There is no telling how many men at any given time are cheating on their wives. To get an accurate reading would be almost impossible. You would have to ask men about something that they normally lie about and then expect them to tell the truth.
Probably the best way to get an accurate reading is to ask men how many of them feel they have been driven to an affair by their wives. I am sure men would be more than glad to own up to being a victim of circumstance and not having been the bad guy in the situation.
As long as men keep looking to blame someone or something for their infidelity, women will be lost on how to change their cheating ways.
It is hard to say how many men get into a marriage for all the wrong reasons.
- They want to have someone to have their babies.
- They want to fit in with other people in their social circle.
- They want to have someone to be at home with them, now that they no longer live with their parents.
- They want someone to take the place of their mothers and baby them.
No matter what the reason, some men do not get in a marriage to be faithful. These men see their wives as the next step on the ladder of adulthood. They have become unable or unwilling to keep up the pace of single life, but do not want to give up the thrill of the chase.
These men are what I call Cakemen.
Cakemen are men who want to have their cake and eat it too. These men do not leave their wives. These men stay with their wives and date someone else at the same time.
They like the fact that they can have someone stable at home, taking care of business, while they continue to play single guy with other women.
They have no real desire to leave their wives and move on to someone else, unless their activities are discovered.
If they are discovered, many of these Cakemen dump the girlfriend and stay with the wife, only to go back to cheating once the dust has settled.
In a man‘s way of thinking, staying with his wife makes all the sense in the world.
If he leaves his wife, then they will have to split up their possessions as well as their bills. In many times it takes a man several years to recover from this.
On the other hand, if he keeps the wife, he gets to keep his lifestyle going with only a minor glitch. The minor glitch is that he will have to act like he is real sorry, dump the old girlfriend, wait awhile, and then go back out and find a new girlfriend.
One of the major reasons men become Cakemen is because they do not want to grow up. It takes a mature adult to handle the day to day responsibilities of a monogamous relationship.
When a man has to see a women everyday and negotiate bills, affection, cooking, cleaning, shopping, and personal undesirable behavior, he longs for a simpler way of living. He wants to be a grown up, but somewhere in his soul he wants all the benefits and none of the responsibility.
Having a woman on the side allows him to play two different roles at the same time. In his mind the pressures of married life can be released by having a sexual relationship with someone else.
In his marriage he can play responsible man and co-decision maker, while in his affair, he can call all the shots and be the lord of the relationship.
The second major reason a man becomes a Cakeman is to keep the feeling of being a player.
When a man gets married, many times he sees himself as being caught or conquered. It is now time for him to go out to pasture and be used as a stud service.
In his eyes, he is slowly, but surely becoming his dad. His days of being a major competitor are over. It is easy to see how this type of thinking would make a man feel old before his time.
One of the easiest and most available ways to feel young and in the game is to get into an affair. Now he is desirable. Now he is a man‘s man.
He is now feeling young and, even though his conscience might be bothering him, the thrill of being a player certainly outweighs those negative thoughts.
The final reason that men cheat on their wives, but don‘t leave them, is that it is a safety net.
Very few men get excited about a full blown gamble. They want to believe that they at least have a 50/50 chance of winning. If there is any way to stack the cards in their favor, they are going to do it.
This is the thinking behind having a wife and a girlfriend. If for some reason a man‘s wife is unwilling to be affectionate when and how he wants, then he has his girlfriend to take up the slack.
If a man wants to be the center of attention and the mister know-it-all, but his wife deflates his ego, then he can go to his girlfriend for a good dose of hero worshipping.
It is not just the wife who gets the short end of the stick, the girlfriend also suffers. At some time, most girlfriends who have heard a man say he hates his wife will entertain the subject of divorce or even marriage.
When a Cakeman is confronted with this issue, he is able to make excuses and fall back into a dilemma of commitment or what is the "right" thing to do. This position successfully keeps the girlfriend at bay for fear that she might lose him.
The sad part of all this behavior is that seldom if ever does everyone come out on top. Usually one or more people suffer deep, long lasting wounds from this type of situation.
Some women are unable or unwilling to trust another man after being with a Cakeman.
These men also suffer from this type of behavior. They never really grow up and take their place in a responsible society. They fill their lives with lies and deceit, which in the long run affect their coping skills and their performance on a job.
Women are putting their lives on hold in hopes that their Cakeman will finally leave their wife and make them the center of their lives.
Finally, if children are involved, the destruction is unbelievable. Counseling offices are filled with children who either caught their father with another woman or had to live in a family where lying was the major form of communication.
The best advise is to play your life honestly. If a relationship is over, then bury it. If you are in a marriage and have met someone else, think before you act.
The emotional stability you save might be your own!
© Copyright 1999, Dr. Roger A. Rhoades |
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| Topic: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP!
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| Subject: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP! - Posted: 4/30/2007 7:36:19 AM
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I hear you loud and clear...and know exactly how you feel...i saw your post before and thought..WHY do you Want a man back who treats you like SHIT?
This might be part of WHY...Please...before you do something RASH...Get yourself into a Therapists office. Stop reading about THEM and look at yourself..There is a REASON why you keep attracting assholes...
And since we can ONLY control ourselves and our REACTIONS to others...maybe it would help to change YOUR own patterns...
Once you figure out WHY you are attracted to people who hurt you and leave you...your life will not feel so filled with DESPAIR.
You mentioned abandonment..and since that is ONE of my issues...i thought I‘d pass on some very important information that might help clarify some of your questions...
http://www.abandonment.net/abando.frame.html
http://www.abandonment.net/profile_an_abandoner_fr.html
http://www.abandonment.net/therapist.html
http://www.abandonment.net/faq.frame.html
http://www.abandonment.net/swirl.frame.html
1: SHATTERING - Your relationship is breaking apart. Your hopes and dreams are Shattered. You are devastated, bewildered. You Succumb to despair and panic. You feel hopeless and have Suicidal feelings. You feel Symbiotically attached to your lost love, mortally wounded, as if you‘ll die without them. You are in Severe pain, Shock, Sorrow. You‘ve been Severed from your primary attachment. You‘re cut off from your emotional life-line.
2: WITHDRAWL - painful Withdrawal from your lost love. The more time goes on, the more all of the needs your partner was meeting begin to impinge into your every Waking moment. You are in Writhing pain from being torn apart. You yearn, ache, and Wait for them to return. Love-withdrawal is just like Heroin withdrawal - - each involves the body‘s opiate system and the same physical symptoms of intense craving. During Withdrawal, you are feeling the Wrenching pain of love-loss and separation - - the Wasting, Weight loss, Wakefulness, Wishful thinking, and Waiting for them to return. You crave a love-fix to put you out of the WITHDRAWAL symptoms.
3: INTERNALIZING - you Internalize the rejection and cause Injury to your self esteem. This is the most critical stage of the cycle when your wound becomes susceptible to Infection and can create permanent scarring. You are Isolated, riddled with Insecurity, self- Indictment and self-doubt. You are preoccupied with ‘If only regrets‘ - - If only you had been more attentive, more sensitive, less demanding, etc. You beat yourself up with regrets over the relationship and Idealize your abandoner at the expense of your own self Image.
4: RAGE - the turning point in the grief process when you begin to fight back. You attempt to Reverse the Rejection by Refusing to accept all of the blame for the failed relationship, and feel surges of Rage against your abandoner. You Rail against the pain and isolation you‘ve been in. Agitated depression and spurts of anger displaced on your friends and family are common during this turbulent time, as are Revenge and Retaliation fantasies toward your abandoner.
5: LIFTING - your anger helped to externalize your pain. Gradually, as your energy spurts outward, it Lifts you back into Life. You begin to Let go. Life distracts you and gradually Lifts you out the grief cycle. You feel the emergence of strength, wiser for the painful Lessons you‘ve Learned. And if you‘re engaged in the process of recovery, you get ready to Love again.
A word of caution: When you Lift, it is important to take your feelings with you. Otherwise you Lose connection with yourself once again, creating an internal barrier to others.
You S.W.I.R.L. through the stages over and over within an hour, a day, a month, sometimes a period of years - - cycles within cycles - - until you emerge out the end of the funnel-shaped cloud, a changed person, better able to find love than before.
HELP is available. Each stage of the SWIRL process is explored in depth in JOURNEY FROM ABANDONMENT TO HEALING, and workbook exercises are provided for each stage in JOURNEY FROM HEARTBREAK TO CONNECTION.
WHAT IS AN ABANDOHOLIC?
HOW IS ABANDONMENT DIFFERENT FROM OTHER TYPES OF GRIEF?
WHAT IS AN ABANDONMENT SURVIVOR?
WHAT IS ABANDONMENT RECOVERY?
WHAT IS AN ABANDONER?
WHY DO WE CARRY A TORCH FOR SO LONG
WHEN SOMEONE HAS BROKEN UP WITH US?
WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF UNRESOLVED ABANDONMENT?
HOW DO I SET UP AN ABANDONMENT SUPPORT GROUP?
I TRULY hope this helps you...It helped me BREAK the Betrayal bond i had to men who HURT ME....Please....take care of yourself!
There is a HUGE difference between MUTAL LOVE...and unrequitted love with a Narcissist.
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| Topic: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP!
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| Subject: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP! - Posted: 4/30/2007 12:32:43 PM
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Hey Ladies from across the sea....Welcome to the "club" of ‘unwanted‘ children...and women, as it would of COURSE be thanks to who WE CHOOSE reminding us of our pasts...of our parents and of our deeply embedded sense of WORTHLESSNESS...thanks to our LOW self esteem...
Abandonment compulsions...have created HAVOC on my life...
Childhood Sexual abuse by a "tursted " family friend"that was BLAMED on me by my Narcissistic foster mother,left me open for adult abuses and even a couple years of professional sexual exploitation...
And being raised dysfunctionally by alcoholics left me easy PREY to types who seek pity and for ME to take FULL responsibility for thier CRAP...
NO MORE I SCREAM AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS!
I am MORE POWERFUL THAN ALL THE ABANDONERS, ALCHOHOLICS Or SEXUAL ABUSERS OF MY PAST. And i DO NOT PLAY INTO THIER HANDS ANYMORE!It is THIER LOSS OF ME...i was an innocent child, and am a GREAT WOMAN AND THEY ARE THREATENED BY MY GOODNESS...and i by thier EVIL!
Being abandoned by an ASSHOLE IS A GOOD THING! I do NOT NEED TO PROVE MY WORTH TO ANYONE...least of all a lying duplicitous betraying PRICK!
There are thousands of us out there...i say let‘s ENLIGHTEN EACHOTHER AWAY from these men...That is my goal...TO EMPOWER ABUSED WOMEN!
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| Topic: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP!
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| Subject: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP! - Posted: 5/1/2007 4:02:22 AM
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| paisleypark wrote: | Dear All, Ramble on says why would I want to be with someone who treated me like shit? I didn‘t think he was shit, which is why I need all the help, support and therapy I can get to get out of this hole that is my grief stricken life. Most other people would be heartbroken after a split, put it into perspective and move on. I, am not like others and need this site for support and help. Reason doesn‘t apply when you have a history like mine. You believe like a child, bad attention is better than no attention at all. It‘s hard to find love. People make out it‘s real easy, but it isn‘t for me. Never has been.
Like a dripping tap effect, I think with each failed relationship it has reached boiling point and due to being CONSTANTLY abused and invalidated from childhood I just have lost all sense of self worth and reason. I have lost all rights as a human being so therefore let others walk all over me. I am about to start therapy, I hope it helps as I am in a really bad way. Like, I can‘t even look people in the eye anymore!
Thank you also for the abandonment recovery information.....It is well received, I am reading through it now, it is me all over! I hope therapy will help sort this out. My biggest fear is being alone....and I stay with these losers because it seems they are the only ones I attract. I have such a long way to go. My self worth is so low I don‘t think I can do any better. And now I am stuck with my past legacy, so much baggage anyone would run a mile!
One thing I didn‘t agree on the abandonment site that potential partner go off you if you come across all needy even if you try to conceal it. I am angry reading this because that infers that its MY FAULT that I may have EMOTIONAL NEEDS!!! We all do, which is why we look for love in a relationship. Why not support someone if they do and find out why they are like that rather than running a mile if they express a human emotion? I am not talking about being clingy just being able to discuss how you feel in a safe environment. I told my ex my deepest fears one night and he pretended to support me, but he didn‘t really. I let go and revealed a deep fear. He betrayed my trust and I can never forgive him for that. I left my feelings at home as he asked me to. So what do I do in the future the same thing???? I will never ever be able to be true to myself which is why I end up with anyone because the real me is just to scary for any man to take.
Lou Lou, I‘m not too far from London!
Paisley, x |
Paisley.....
Let me clarify....
When you wrote...my abusive boyfriend won‘t talk to me i thought..LUCKY YOU. Who, but an abandoholic or someone Betrayal Bonded
The following are a series of statements which describe traumatic bonding
in which a person bonds with an unfaithful or abusive partner on the
basis of betrayal. This unhealthy pattern is what Patrick Carnes calls
a "Betrayal Bond".
http://soundingcircle.com/newslog2.php/__cat/_c2242/Sexuality
The "Betrayal Bond" Index
(Here are the first 15 of the 30 Question Quiz)
Yes No Do you obsess about people who have hurt you even through
they are long gone?
Yes No Do you continue to seek contact with people whom you know
will cause you further pain?
Yes No Do you go "overboard" to help people who have been
destructive to you?
Yes No Do you continue to be a "team" member when obviously things
are becoming destructive?
Yes No Do you continue attempts to get people to like you who are
clearly using you?
Yes No Do you trust people again and again who are proven to be
unreliable?
Yes No Are you unable to retreat from unhealthy relationships?
Yes No Do you try to be understood by those who clearly do not
care?
Yes No Do you choose to stay in conflict with others when it would
cost you nothing to walk away?
Yes No Do you persist in trying to convince people that there is a
problem and they are not willing to listen?
Yes No Are you loyal to people who have betrayed you?
Yes No Do you attract untrustworthy people?
Yes No Have you kept damaging secrets about exploitation or abuse?
Yes No Do you continue contact with an abuser who acknowledges no
responsibility?
Yes No Do you find yourself covering up, defending, or explaining
a relationship?
Go the SexHelp.com to take this complete quiz on line and access
Patrick Carnes‘ books on The Betrayal Bond, Don‘t Call It Love, Out of
the Shadows--on Internet Sexual Addiction and other informative books
on sexual addiction.
to an abuser, as you claimed you realized he was,even wants to talk to an abusive boyfriend? I know ALL about it. And i am not sitting in judgement..BELIEVE me...i have been there BEGGING for CARE and ending up with humilation, disgrace and a total LOSS of EGO and PRIDE.
I know ALL about being constantly invalidated, about becoming so low that i felt FORCED to settle for so much less than i DESERVED..let alone earned from another human being.IT HURTS DEEPLY to be emotionally, let alone sexually betrayed..The thing is...it is all about WHO we CHOOSE and why we choose them. And yes...as much as I HATE that my past relationships have been played out in some SICK pattern of self destruction, I am the problem.Obviously, if we choose men who have no respect, care or Conscience, we WILL get hurt. The trick then becomes...gaining what we LOST to these men, and raising above our own lowered expectations of love. We choose to settle subconsciously. And HATE ourselves for it. But BLAME these limited men for our own downfalls.
I have been clinically depressed in reaction to abusers in my life.I BLAMED myself for all.I NEVER felt "Good Enough" for anyone.I chose men who reflected my low self esteem for years.I am EASY PREY to users and abusers BECAUSE that is familiar to me.I had to STOP that cycle and pattern myself.I could NOT rely on an emotionally unavailable man to HELP ME..he couldn‘t even help HIMSELF.
That abandonment site is ME too.I am NOT over my past..but i am growing and learning and attempting to BREAK my own self destructive cycles. YOU CAN TOO!
I find it so odd that knowing my past as i do, why I fell prey to more abusers...i ALWAYS just wanted to be LOVED. NOT hated or mistreated or betrayed...but somehow..because i didn‘t realize that I WAS the one who was allowing my own abuses by not getting UP AND LEAVING...being too afraid to speak my truths, being afraid of being alone kept me imprisoned with ASSHOLES that never showed me an ouce of concern..
YOu are RIGHT..we DO deserve to be able to find support, love care and to get our needs met..but if we KEEP seeking it from the same types of ABANDONERS who have thier own issues that they RARELY have the courage to face, let alone DEAL with in Therapy, we are DOOMED to find ourselves at thier indifference "mercy".
I just got DAMEND Sick of feeling like i wasn‘t worth SHIT to a man..
I had to open my eyes and SEE that i was and AM worthy...i just CHOOSE people who reflect my low sense of self..
NO MORE! WE may have been abused throughout our lives..but WE CAN STOP THAT now that we are adults. By changing how we SEE ourselves. I would MUCH rather BE ALONE, than be treated like i am worthless.
I say at this point..if you can‘t TREAT ME WITH CARE, LOVE AND RESPECT..PLEASE ABANDON ME!
I CHOOSE not to ALLOW anyone to abuse me even if it means...i am alone.
You are going to BE OK paisley...i promise you.
It has taken me years to come to terms with my own issues that have lead me into abusive relationships..but it IS POSSIBLE to see yourself in a NEW LIGHT!
IGNORING NEGATIVE TAPES and recreating more positive view of yourself WILL ONLY attract better people into your sphere..
If we have HEALTHY BOUNDARIES OF ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. for oureslves and others...we can only benefit.
Being ALONE is not so bad as being abused...and in a "relationship" I know you know that in your heart...
If we dont‘ LOVE ourselves enough to protect ourselves from unneccesary pain others cause us, then why would we think anyone would care more about us than we do?
You are more than welcome for the information.When i came across it i snapped into a new reality of myself. Ioffering it with BEST WISHES that somehow, you will gain a new sense of HOPE that you can alter your perceptions and leanr to NOT follow your GUT as right now..it is not as healthy as it could be...and you are FAR from alone in that.
I hear your indignation about NORMAL neediness within relationships being IGNORED of judged...I think they mean that people with thier own commitment issues and passive aggressive traits CAN"T Give you what you need and they RUN from you out of FEAR...you have EVERY Right to have EXPECTATIONS of others...
Just be sure you deal with the TRUTH of thiers and YOUR own limitations before you seek MORE than they have to give..There are ALWAYS RED FLAGS that we IGNORE in our neediness.
That is the key to all of this..WHO WE CHOOSE and FROM What place we are coming from..
The healthier we are, the more we can expect from our partners.And the less we will feel the need to SETTLE for less than we NEED...
I know what it feels like to be SCARRED for life by past abusers..and i must say...there ARE people with compassion and empathy and love to give you despite your past.
Do you best to heal yourself, and you might just see a change in who you choose.
You are right..it is NOT your fault you have emotional needs, but you HAVE to remember..most men can NOT deal with womens emotional landscapes the way we WANT THEM TO. so WE MUST take care of our own needs most of the time..WE ALL DEAL WITH THAT...even in healthy relationships.If you choose men who are more evolved and less shallow and merely in it for the sex, maybe you will see a difference.
I have set many a limited man up for a fall of the pedestal I put him on.
MY BAD.
Treat yourself with Dignity and the world will be forced to follow siut.
Wishing you healing and awareness and an open mind...there is no healing in defensiveness or denial...And from what i can see...you are on the RIGHT TRACK!
Hang in there..YOU ARE WORTHY OF LOVE AND OF CHANGE!
And when YOU realize that...without needing it to come from outside of yourself...things will feel alot less futile.
If you LEAVE your self esteem in someone elses hands..it ususally doesn‘t fulfill you.
Kristin
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| Topic: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP!
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| Subject: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP! - Posted: 5/1/2007 11:41:39 AM
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Hey Lou Lou....
I wanted to just tell you, i have alot more time in the morning to respond...I have 3 children....and dinner to cook but i hate leave anyone hanging...so if you are patient...i will get back to you...ok?
I can tell you one thing...i did not do the program...
But instead..entered therapy,found support in forums and learned ALL i could about Narcissists and Healthy Narcissism... and just plain WOKE THE HECK UP to my patterns...oh..and at the end of one of the parts in that site is says..
Dont‘ follow your gut feelings...as you ‘gut‘ isn‘t healthy.....
That truly stuck in my head...
I decided...i would do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what my Gut told me to do..and so far...it is working. There are still days that i CRAVE men who lead me on and run from me...and almost HATE my own husband and his reliability and security...as it makes me feel TRAPPED...but i am learning that what i CLAIM To want and what my gut tells me I want are TWO different things.
shoot...off i go...my daughter is about to be let off the bus alone...she‘s only 6...Talk to you tomorrow...
Take care...Kristin
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| Topic: He‘s dumped me and I feel great!!!
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| Subject: He‘s dumped me and I feel great!!! - Posted: 5/1/2007 12:42:44 PM
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Lou Lou----------------
I tried to send you my privately grown Gerber Daisies as a reminder that you are a Beautiful Flower worthy of better than the abusive man FROM YOUR PAST.... who is merely the DIRT!
But it wouldn‘t post...sorry...i tried!
NO CONTACT on YOUR terms....is the best remedy for what ails you!
PROVE HIM WRONG...you WON‘T BE BACK!
Sounds to me like you ran into a FULL blown Sociopath/Narcissist...stay away for your own good....All he wants is to CONTROL YOUR EMOTIONS...as they are emotional vampires...and you are not his prey anymore!
Hugs...Kristin!
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| Topic: He‘s dumped me and I feel great!!!
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| Subject: He‘s dumped me and I feel great!!! - Posted: 5/2/2007 3:58:31 AM
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"I know that man‘s a bastard, there is no doubt about this. So why do I cry for the loss? He made me miserable!"
Lou Lou....
I am sorry that you are hurting right now and i totally understand why.
It feels like you were abaondoned by someone beneath you and it is HUMILATING to say the least. Like you aren‘t somehow "good enough" for even an asshole who disrespects you.
These people never start off showing thier TRUE colors and it is ALWAYS so shocking when they turn you on just to turn on you.
Youa re one step ahead of the ‘game" on healing because you know the true source of your pain...some people stay in denial for years and just continue to beat themselves up when no one is around to do it for them.
I admit, i cried and felt shattered and went through serious Love Addiction Withdrawls over more jerks than i care to admit to in my life...IT HURTS to hear the kinds of insensitive and indifferent things these people say.
I used to INTERNALIZE it all and allow them to beat me up with THIER ISSUES...until i learned that THEY ARE MORE MESSED up than I am and they "get off" making me miserable.
From that point on...i STOPPED letting thier hurtful words effect me.
WHO THE HELL ARE THEY anyways!
But JERKS who never CARED in the FIRST PLACE?
And GUESS what...it may fEEL like that is somehow a reflection of OUR lsck of Woth..but in reality...
How they treat US is a reflection of thier inability to LOVE ANYONE.
It‘s NOT us. It‘s THEM.
And the way we tend to react is out of FRUSTRATION at the POWERLESSNESS of it all...
I am truly sorry that he is getting to you with his hauntingly RUDE actions and statements of the past...
The only way to escape it is to not allow ANYMORE of him into your mind.
Don‘t call him EVER again. NO matter what!
If you do, you will only have to again go through this withdrawl phase...and feel shattered again.
The fact that we were abandoned as children IS WHY we fall for these types of Abandoners. It SUCKS to realize that the patterns we have are not even our fault...but the pain we feel is REAL.
The goal i think is to learn to VALUE ourselves DESPITE how others try to demean us, belittle us and devalue us...
That is just what SCARED little BOYS do to frightened little girls.
Pull yourself together and PROMISE yourself you won‘t internalize HIS SHIT!
The things he says are PROOF that he has serious issues, and no one, not even your love can or will CHANGE THAT for him...
All you can do is learn to REACT with OUTRAGE and protect yourself form this in the future.
I found this long ago and it made alot of sense to me...i think that these men who abuse womens love and care are just afraid of the power we hold over them and do everything in thier power to show us what they are afraid of, by pushing us away in any way they think will work.
LOVE.TRUST. COMMITMENT.
That has nothing to do with YOU.
Let him go...he is beneath you...and try to show yourself LOVE, CARE and COMMITMENT to not allowing your past to dictate your future choices in men.
I wish you peace during this time of mourning the loss of an illusion he painted of himself.
You loved a lie...
And that is something to cry about.
take care...and know...i have layed in my bed weeping and mourning many losses....but the ones that hurt the most where the ones i didn‘t feel i had caused.
That was ALL OF THEM.And in the end...the people who left me weren‘t worthy of me in the FIRST PLACE!
GOOD RIDDANCE is what i feel now...
I know one day you will feel the same way...
hugs....kristin
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| Topic: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP!
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| Subject: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP! - Posted: 5/2/2007 11:41:58 AM
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(((((((((((((((Paisley))))))))))))))
Now I am the one in Tears!
I can‘t tell you enough how Happy i was to read
your positive and hopeful response!
It feels like NONE of my painful or hard won realizations went to waste
on YOU!
BLESS YOU!
And your new outlook..
MAY IT STICK to you like GLUE and lead you away from all of the pain others have coused you in your life!
Over the years, i have been recovering from being Professionally Exploited by a Married Massage Therapist who seemed to be a Destructive Narcissist,if not a Sociopath, and whom for a longgg time,i was seriously Betrayal bonded to, while i too was married, to the point of NOT reporting him but takng ALL responsibility for HISA ctions onto my own life to spare him the pain he left me with,because i felt to BLAME for what he did to me, actually , what i ALLOWED him to do to me in the name of misguided love...It has been a harrowing experience that left me with my Authentic Self more intact than any other situation ever did..It STRIPPED ME RAW for a reason...so i could learn a BETTER way of living and loving...and forgiving my abusers..........and myself... i have ran into all types of kind, validating and and empowered women who helped ME GET through the N-FOG, who taught me jsut what part i played in my own exploitation, who helped me through my confusion and fears and self doubts about my worth, about my own unresolved sexual abuse, abandonment and adult child of alcoholics issues that came to light thanks to my abusers and my reactions to them being SO OFF, and i feel lucky to be able to be "Through" the tunnel of Despair" enough to give back the same kind of hopeful and positive advice and support!
I wish you NOTHING but happiness...as you DESERVE IT!
Sometimes...we get what we NEED from sources we least expected...
Hugs...
Kristin
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| Topic: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP!
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| Subject: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP! - Posted: 5/2/2007 12:11:49 PM
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"I too thought about "ending it" but realized my child needs me too much for me to do something like that, that would only put me in the same category as my abandoning parents."
I have 3 children that i live for, for those same reasons...But the main reason i never was so selfish as to kill myself is that i still have HOPE and need to contiue to find people who help me restore my faith in humanity.,despite all of the ones who made me think that life was unfair, and unkind and cruel to the innocent.I REFUSE to die without giving myself the chance to feel truly happy within.
I owe that to myself.
I think my children are living proof, that CYCLES of ABUSE and ABANDONMENT can be Broken with hard work, Empathy and forgiveness for the limitations of others.
If i have any true legacy to give them, it is that i did NOT abandon them, abuse them or invalidate them...and for that...i am PROUD!
My family history is SO MESSED UP...i want to be the FIRST to make things right for the next generations.
But i had to stumble down alot of roads ,ill prepared for life and love and unaware of all the types of people out there who SEEK Out women with low self esteem for thier own sick needs,i might not have felt compelled to take had i not been living with so many unresolved abandonment issues that made me feel as IF i had to settle for 100% less than i deserved or again be abandoned..
That is a FARCE I refuse to accept today.
But....there was a day...that i would accept any amount of abuse,neglect,invalidation,critisim,humilation,or depression with what i thought was FORGIVENESS within a relationship to AVOID being left.
All it was was a Betrayal Bond..and only I could break it.
That ALL changed when i opened my eyes and thought...
WHAT WOULD I REALLY BE LOSING HERE?
The answer came back...NO MORE ABUSE!
I have not settle for that CRAP for years now...and while I may not be fully recovered from my childhood..i am intellectually aware now of what i can and can‘t handle or tolerate from others.
I finally have HEALTHY BOUNDARIES.
What a CONCEPT!
I didn‘t even REALIZE i had a right to them, let alone what they were...now i do...and it makes all the difference.
I may be alone more than not,as my standards are not for "sale", but i find that the people who RESPECT me, love me and care about me don‘t expect me to lower my standards, nor do they "get bent" if i DARE CARE about MYSELF!
That seems to be the TRUE SIGN of love...people who understand that I have a RIGHT To care ABOUT MYSELF...are allowed to be in my life.
All others are shown the door!
I am HAPPY my despair never took me so low that i was not here to see my own growth..NOW..that would have been a shame...and NOT what i was seeking...All i ever wanted was to be loved...and I am.
I love me. :)
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| Topic: What is a narcissist? Is he???
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| Subject: What is a narcissist? Is he??? - Posted: 5/4/2007 6:05:44 AM
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Good Morning Lou lou....
This is a long one...and i hope it brings you some amount of peace.
Sorry, i missed this post yesterday...i was taking a break for my own sanity.I am sorry you are having a hard time disengaging emotionally.I have to tell you that that is par for the course thanks to our Abandonment issues.But it is FAR from the fact that you are missing ANYTHING but more abuse..I am SURE you know that at this point though..The way they treat us in the end..is a FAR cry from how they treated us at the start....The dynamics they leave us with when it comes to no closure, comprehension and confusion of WHY they treat us so indifferently IS why we get stuck...and confused and burdened with the SHAME and BLAME they project onto us.
PUT IT BACK IN HIS LAP...figuratively...and find a way to move forward without internalizing HIS loss OF YOU....
The love to make you think that somehow YOU are the one missing out on something special....THAT IS just not the case...and deep down...they know it.
It‘s been all about approach/avoidance i am sure as it is for most women dealing with men with Personality Disorders. Commitment Phobias, Passive Aggressive Disorders, Madonna/Whore Complexes...its all about F**KED UP PSYCHOLOGY!
And we are FAR for responsibile for THAT...only how we REACT TO IT!
Once you FULLY impose NO CONTACT...and educate yourself about the why‘s and how‘s of these people and your reactions to them..the N-FOG begins to clear and healing can begin from a more knowledgeable perspective...and a much less self blaming light!
I know...you don‘t like to be abused...but you are the only one who can stop it.There are always going to be people willing to take advantage of your need for love and care...You have to learn to WEED OUT THE SHITHEADS!
Just so you understand..i am not a "know it all"when it comes to others..just myself. If my information helps you open your eyes and helps you change in a positive way to avoid abusers, i would be VERY proud and happy for you..I have lived this issue FIRST HAND and have spent alot of time researching my behavior/reactions and his and i have to add...learning to reframe the past relationships i had that were also abusive and WHY i stayed when they were obviously harmful to me.
I seem to have learned from a very young age to Trama Bond to abusers...it is my pattern...well...was.It can be done...change is possible.
I have gathered up as much information as I can to help you put this into a more rational and probable perspective. But i have to say...it really shouldn‘t matter IF he is a Narcissist.Nor can you actually diagnose one as you are not a professional..BUT..it it walks like a duck, Quacks like a duck and flies like a duck..it‘s a DUCK. The bottom line is HE TREATS YOU LIKE YOU MEAN NOTHING and that in itself should make you want to RUN in the opposite direction.
AND STAY AWAY no matter HOW much you feel emotional withdrawls.Think of him like a DRUG...you have to kick or die.
But if you really feel compelled to understand..i give you FAIR WARNING...this is some very intense information about Dysfunctional Human Nature/Nurture that had i not found, i would not feel so afraid of people in general.Sometimes i wish i didn‘t know that these people exist amongst us...but without knowing, i would be perpetual prey thanks to my own issues.
I am a SUCKER for a pitiful man.I actually think that my LOVE can heal all...NOT THESE PEOPLE!
It is really ALL about we victims learning to SPOT these people BEFORE they exploit us, idealize, devalue and discard us with our OWN HEALTHY BOUNDARIES.Self Respect. And unwillingness to tolerate ANY AMOUNT of ABUSE in the name of love..WE CAN"T HELP THEM..
They can‘t SEE they have major issues..and they can‘t be bothered to change...as they are entitled to harm others in thier minds...So be it...but don‘t MESS WITH ME...
And since they seek PITY as a way to manipulate us...use CHARM and SEDUCTION as a means to getting into our psyches only to induce thier own abandonment in an attempt to have CONTROL they never had as children..They are a force to be reckoned with.
Your BEST BET is to learn what you can in order to STEER CLEAR and work on your own issues so you dont‘ EVER have to feel this badly again.
NO man is worth your tears...and the ones who are WORTHY of your love..will NEVER make you sad.
This person you wanted to love you can‘t. Plain and simple.For whatever reason. For whichever amatuer diagnosis...you have to face RIGHT NOW...it isnt‘ ABOUT you...or your lack of WORTH..It is about his inability to commit, care or repair your internal demons for you. He is MORE LOST THAN YOU KNOW.
And getting him OUT of your life and mind is your only hope.
I will say...i too WAS STUCK and all of the information i am posting HELPED ME DISENGAGE.
GET ANGRY and INDIGNANT at HIM..don‘t take it to heart or blame yourself for anything BUT your willingness to allow him to hurt you...take responsibility for ENDING THIS for your SAKE...You owe THAT to yourself.....
I am here...and i understand..and i know how humilating it is to trust someone implicitly only to realize...they are THE MOST UNTRUSTWORTHY person you have ever known..(or reminders of unresolved abuse and trust issues from our childhoods).and they can easily use and lose you as if you never meant ANYTHING...there is a reason they do that...and in some ways..it isnt‘ even thier fault..they are PRODUCTS OF ABUSIVE ENVIRONMENTS.themselves...and some would say..Genetically Predisposed to any number of serious Character /Personality Disorders.
Whether he be Sociopathic, Psychopathic, Narcissistic,or Anti-Social...
HE IS A DANGER TO YOUR MENTAL HEALTH.
The more you focus on HIM...the less you focus on helping yourself.
Don‘t WASTE THE TIME ON HIM....
Please...Take care of YOU...This is where you begin your life again...ABUSE FREE!
There are many many places that support VICTIMS of these types of people...Here is some pertinant information and support groups who FULLY understand what you have been through.
Not that this place doesn‘t..but they can be more specific than you can imagine..I NEVER knew of this DARK UNDER BELLY of humanity until it was TOO LATE...i lost SO Much to a Narcissist.
It has taken me years to regain my sense of SELF...as i handed my already wounded heart to a empty soul on a silver platter.
I want to add...i was raised by one, born to one, sexually abused by one, a girlfriend to one,married to one, and professionally exploited by one BEFORE i CAUGHT ON to any of it...so dont‘ feel badly for not knowing.
I don‘t...as i always PROJECTED my trustworthiness and care onto others...and ASSUMED it would be returned...NOT always going to be the case.
I think that my need to TRUST and my vulnerability truly made me EASY PREY....today though...i am AWARE...and that makes alot of difference to how and who i Trust and love.
I hope this might help you get right to the POINT...and heal.
I know how hard it is to just walk away as it feels more like leaving a big part of yourself behind...but i can ASSURE you...what they have stolen..they NEVER GIVE BACK!
CUT YOUR LOSSES...you have no other choice.
I hope you know...you are FAR FROM ALONE in this discovery..and it might be shocking at times to realize that most of him was a lie...but better to know the TRUTH..than to WASTE OUR HEARTS on the broken.
I agree...MOST cheaters are Narcissists.
Beware the techniques of the Sociopath
Dr. Martha Stout, in her book ‘The Sociopath Next Door‘, discusses the techniques of the sociopath - what she refers to as ‘the tools of the trade‘. The first technique she talks about is charm. Dr. Stout believes it is "a primary characteristic of sociopathy. The intense charm of people who have no conscience, a kind of inexplicable charisma, has been observed and commented on by countless victims, and by researchers who attempt to catalog the diagnostic signs of sociopathy. It is a potent characteristic". Dr. Robert Hare and Dr. Paul Babiak talk about the role of charm during the interview process in their latest book "Snakes in Suits - When Psychopaths Go To Work". According to the book, "one of the most effective skills psychopaths use to get the trust of people is their ability to charm them. Some psychopaths lay the charm on too thick, coming across as glib, superficial, and unconvincing. Hower, the truly talented ones have raised their ability to charm people to that of an art, priding themselves on their ability to present a fictional self to others that is convincing, taken at face value, and difficult to penetrate". One must always keep in mind that the charm, like manipulation, can be very subtle. Seduction is another common technique of the sociopath. According to Dr. Stout "people without conscience have an uncanny sense of who will be vulnerable to a sexual overture". But seduction is not llimited to sexual relationships; sociopaths can and will seduce family, friends and colleagues with their acting skills. Sociopaths will seduce others for power, money, control and sex. The pity play is next on the list of sociopathic techniques. It‘s okay to pity someone who has gone through difficult times, but if you find yourself feeling sorry for someone‘s sad story, make sure the story is true. The pity play should be a warning sign to all of us. Projection and gaslighting are also on the list of common sociopathic techniques. Sociopaths refuse to be held accountable for their behavior and often assign their own behavior to their victims. For example, a sociopath could accuse a victim of stealing when it is the sociopath himself that steals. Gaslighting is a common practice of abusers who attempt to convince their victims they are defective for any reason such as making the victim more emotional, more needy or dependent. For example, if an abusive person says hurtful things and tries to convince you that you are mentally unstable and starts recommending that you get professional help, you might be in the presence of a gaslilghter. According to Dr. Hare and Dr. Babiak, psychopaths are always on the lookout for individuals to scam or swindle. The psychopathic approach includes three phases: the assessment phase, the manipulation phase and the abandonment phase. "Some psychopaths are opportunistic, aggressive predators who wil take advantage of almost anyone they meet, while others are more patient, waiting for the perfect, innocent victim to cross their path. In each case, the psychopath is constantly sizing up the potential usefulness of an individual as a source of money, power, sex or influence". The authors go on to say that some psychopaths enjoy a challenge while others prey on people who are vulnerable. This could include people who are lonely or people who need emotional support, elderly people or those who have been recently hurt or victimized. During the assessment phase, the psychopath is able to determine a potential victim‘s weak points and will use those weak points to seduce.
Once the psychopath has identified a victim, the manipulation phase begins. During the manipulation phase, a psychopath may create a persona or mask, specifically designed to ‘work‘ for his or her target. A psychopath will lie to gain the trust of their victim. A psychopath‘s lack of empathy and guilt allows them to lie with ease - "they don‘t see the value of telling the truth unless it will help get them what they want".
In Chapter 4 of the book "Snakes in Suits", Dr. Hare and Dr. Babiak write: "As interaction with you proceeds, the psychopath carefully assesses your persona. Your persona gives the psychopath a picture of the traits and characteristics you value in yourself. Your persona may also reveal, to an astute observer, insecurities or weaknesses you wish to minimize or hide from view. As an ardent student of human behavior, the psychopath will then gently test the inner strengths and needs that are part of your private self and eventually build a personal relationship with you by communicating (through words and deeds) four important messages". According to the book the four messages that the psychopath communicates are 1) I like who you are; 2) I am just like you; 3) Your secrets are safe with me; and 4) I am the perfect friend or lover or partner for you.
Dr. Hare and Dr. Babiak sum up the differences between a real bond between two people who meet each other and have much in common and the psychopathic bond quite well: "..the persona of the psychopath-the "personality" the person is bonding with-does not really exist. It was built on lies, carefully woven together to entrap you. It is a mask, one of many, custom-made by the psychopath to fit your particular psychological needs and expectations. It does not reflect the true personality--the psychopathic personality--that lies beneath. It is a convenient fabrication. Second, these relationships are not based on informed choice. The psychopath chooses you and then moves in. Outsiders, without the benefit of intimate converesation, may see what is really going on, but we tend to discount these observations, and may spend energy convincing our friends that this person is special. Third, because it is faked, it won‘t last like genuine relationships. While genuine relationships change over time--love may turn to hate, marriages end in divorce--the initial starting point was based on real data, as it was known at the time. People change over time, and sometimes grow apart. The psychopath, though, will not invest more than minimal energy in maintaining the relationship unless you can offer something really special, which is not usually the case. Hence, when the relationship ends, you may be left wondering what just happened. Fourth, the relationhip is one-sided because the psychopath has an ulterior--some would say "evil"--and, at the very least, selfish motive. The victimization goes far beyond trying to take advantage of someone on a date or during a simple business transaction. The victimization is predatory in nature; it often leads to severe financial, physical or emotional harm for the individual. Healthy, real relationships are built on mutual respect and trust; they are based on sharing honest thoughts and feelings. The mistaken belief that the psychopathic bond has any of these characteristics is the reason it is so successful". Dr. Hare goes on to say that the psychopathic bond can take place very quickly, sometimes within hours. That means it could happen over coffee, drinks, in a business meeting or, as Dr. Hare mentions, on a cross-country airplane trip. The abandonment phase begins when the psychopath decides that their victim is no longer useful. They abandon their vicim and move on to someone else. In the case of romantic relationshps, a psychopath will usually seal a relationship with their next target before abandoning their current victim. Abandonment can happen quickly and can occur without the current victim knowing that the psychopath was looking for someone new. There will be no apologies for the hurt and pain they cause because psychopaths do not appreciate these emotions.
What Dr. Hare and Babiak discuss in their most recent book is chiling and disturbing but the information should not be ignored. I believe it is human nature to want to avoid bad news or discount information that may be difficult to comprehend. Confronting the truth that there are millions of people in this country alone that exhibit the traits of a psychopath or sociopath is extremely hard to believe for most of us. We all want to believe in the goodness of others; we assume that everyone can feel empathy and guilt, compassion and real love. Unforturnately, what you see is not always what you get and appearances can be deceiving. To anyone who is interested in protecting themselves or others against the psychopathic bond, please read "Snakes in Suits - When Psychopaths Go To Work" by Dr Robert Hare Ph.D. and Dr. Paul Babiak, Ph.D. As the book states "The number of people with psychopathic personalities suggests that most of us will come across at least one psychopath during a typical day. However, the ability of clever psychopaths to hide their true nature makes it difficult to tell them from others one might meet on the street".
I used to think it was ME....that i wasn‘t worthy of love or care..that was thanks to my own mother and father not wanting me, but that wasnt‘ BECAUSE OF ME..that was because of THEM...
i found that the people who made me feel that way...weren‘t worthy of MY LOVE OR CARE, and it made it all the easier to leave them behind.
I am proud to say..i am 3 YEARS NC...it made ALL the difference.
Hugs...and much hope...Kristin
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| Topic: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP!
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| Subject: Feeling like ending it all PLEASE PLEASE HELP! - Posted: 5/4/2007 7:16:34 AM
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To my Kind new friends...
I so appreciate the GRATITUDE you have all shown me for my efforts...if there is one thing that TRULY disgusted me in all of my abusive relationships was the INGRATITUDE for my Empathy and mercy on them.
I am getting AS MUCH out of this as you all are!
I am continuing learning everyday and with every word i read and write here!
And seeing you all growing and trying HELPS reinforce my belief that WOMEN ARE THE HEART OF HUMANITY!
We may be in the same painful boat, but at least we can paddle through it together.
I value that most about this.I NEVER have to feel alone, or like i am a complete mess up as long as i have understanding and VALIDATION.
Thank you for that...i too need it.I am far from totally healed or "over" my past choices...dysfunctional as they were...and sometimes till are..
But i know in my heart...WE ARE ALL TRYING...
And Paisley...PLEASE...do not give up on therapy.Not yet...I have been to many in my lifetime..and not all are Qualified in your specific needs.
Some are down right exploitive themselves...
Do yourself a favor..Hunt around for Professional Therapists who deal in Victims of Narcissistic abuse.
There is a good chance that you are REACTING NORMALLY to ABNORMAL Behaviors in a Narcissist.
While we ALL have issues, pathologizing ourselves is NOT the only way to deal with this.
When we are exploited by others, sometimes we react to that Trama in a bonding way that makes us LOOK and FEEL very Codependant...but when you see the WHOLE PICTURE...it is alot easier to accept ONLY your responsibility for an abusive relationship.(How YOU REACT to trama).....NOT THIERS TOO!
http://www.narcissisticabuse.com/goingcrazy.html
"I THINK I‘M HAVING A NERVOUS BREAKDOWN"
"Courage is resistance and mastery of fear, not absence of fear." Mark Twain
Feeling sane is a matter of feeling in control. The narcissist doesn‘t want us to be in control of our feelings or emotions. He wants us off guard, feeling chaos, despair and need. We end up angry, depressed and sometimes suicidal. But we don‘t have to. There are ways to navigate this journey. Bruce Gregory‘s article on how to deal with narcissists is at the end of this page. It‘s practical, down to earth strategy is exactly what we need to take control and lose the feeling of going crazy.
In myths of old, perilous journeys are metaphors for the trials and tribulations we endure to develop strength. It is important not to have a victim mentality. Don‘t despair. You are not mentally ill, you are injured. Getting to the other side of this means finding strength that will be with us for the rest of our lives. Life CAN get better. Thanks to Sam for finding some of the quoted passages which I have found invaluable in understanding both myself and how to deal with the narcissist in my life. "Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in awful bills." Minna Antrim
| Fight or Flight
Slow down. You are not "crazy". You are feeling the physical reaction to extreme trauma and stress. Your reaction is normal. Awful feeling, but normal under the circumstances.
Your body is in the fight or flight mode and you feel the physicality of your stress. Cortisol and adrenaline, the stress hormones, are flowing through your body causing your heart to race and your breathing to become shallow. (Deep breathing really does help switch from the panic mode to a calmer mode, done deeply enough which means your belly expands as a baby‘s does when breathing, then completely emptying the lungs switches you over to the calming side of your nervous system, away from the fight or flight. Give it a chance. Don‘t try once then give up. Stay with it. Tell yourself you are in charge of your emotions, that you are learning how not to be a victim, then change your body to feel that way. It CAN work.)
Women and Madness
In the introduction to the 25th Anniversary Edition of her book, Women and Madness, Phyliss Chesler, M.D. writes:
We now understand that women and men are not "crazy" or "defective" when, in response to trauma, they develop post traumatic symptoms,including insomnia, flashbacks, phobias, panic attacks, anxiety,depression, dissociation, a numbed toughness, amnesia, shame, guilt, self-loathing, self-mutilation, and social withdrawal.
Oppression causes bodily changes. These changes make you think you are going crazy. There is a difference between a mental illness and a psychological injury. Victims of abuse are not mentally ill, they have been injured. Healing does happen. We find ways to move from victim to not-victim.
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Narcissism Victim Syndrome, A new diagnosis?
Do you see a preponderance of middle aged women in your practices with no particular physical disease process, yet a variety of physical and/or emotional complaints, including: insomnia, weight loss or gain, depression, anxiety, phobias, broken bones, lacerations, or bruises? Some may report an overwhelming feeling of emptiness or doom. Others may talk about or attempt suicide.
These patients are frequently rather nervous, with a guilt-ridden, anxious look and effect. They may appear restless, worried, and/or demonstrate a fake laugh that seems to hide something else.
In extreme cases they may describe sudden outbursts of rage with accompanying violence. They may have even been arrested for assault on their spouse. A few of them are men.
Who are these patients and how did they get this way? While there may be many situations with similar symptoms, it is important to recognize these may be "Victims of Narcissists" and they need your help. While narcissism itself has been a diagnosis in the DSM - IV, psychiatry‘s complete reference, little to nothing has been written in the medical literature surrounding those who live with the narcissist ? and the torturous lives they live. And there are many of them out there.
Narcissism is a broad spectrum of behaviors. On a scale of 1 - 10, Healthy Narcissism is a one, and Pathological Narcissism, or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, (NPD) is a 10.
Healthy Narcissism is something we all can use. It‘s having a healthy self-esteem. It‘s what makes us pick ourselves up after experiencing failure and going on towards the next goal. It‘s what gives us the ability to help each other, and to love someone - as we already know how to love ourselves.
Yet, Pathological Narcissism is an ironic twist of this healthy state. Outwardly, it appears that these people love themselves too much - to the exclusion of anyone else. It is as if they are God himself and those around them must recognize their omnipotence, supreme knowledge, and absolute entitlement and power. Rules don‘t apply to them. They have an unrealistic and overblown sense of self, often without the credentials to match, as well as fantasies of unlimited power, success, and/or brilliance. They are interpersonally exploitive and have absolutely no understanding of empathy or compassion.
They are neither kind nor benevolent gods. And those who live with them end up paying the price.
While there is a range of narcissistic behaviors lying between level 1 and 10 on this scale, one doesn‘t need to have full-blown NPD to do incredible damage to those in the inner circle.
While victims of Narcissists are generally codependents, most have no idea how they got in this situation, because in the early stages of the relationship the Narcissistic person can be the most charming, Academy Award winning actor or actress (according to the DSM-IV, 50-75% of narcissists are men), of the century.
The early days of the dating is fast, furious, and vastly romantic. Oftentimes marriage proposals come within a few weeks. The "victim" sees the narcissist as the "Perfect Partner". She‘s never met someone so wonderful in her lifetime and falls head-over-heels in love. The two go on to live happily ever after - or so she thinks - until the "real" partner surfaces. The once wonderful Dr. Jekyll turns into the dangerous Mr. Hyde who quickly instills fear, anxiety, uncertainty, and total confusion to the relationship.
The change can be quick and powerful or slow and insidious.
We are all way too familiar with overt narcissists: those abusive husbands who send thousands of battered women to the emergency room each year. They feel it is their God-given right to beat, abuse, and otherwise threat their partner in whatever method they deem necessary and no one can tell them otherwise.
Then there is the verbally abusive and controlling narcissist ? the one who uses emotional abuse as his weapon of choice. He tells his victim who she can see, what time she needs to be home, and when she can go to bed. Or in the case of Jamie, whose husband makes her recite every day, "I‘m only worth 29 cents - the price of a bullet," he erodes her self-worth to nothing to keep her under his control.
Who else could possible want such a worthless woman as she? With that belief, she will never leave him for good, although she makes many brief attempts to do so. She always returns. The brainwashing that continues day after day is emotionally exhausting, draining, and vastly unhealthy.
Yet almost worse is the "Stealth Narcissist," so sinister and silent in his ability to drive his partner crazy that she doesn‘t suspect anything bad is happening until it‘s too late. He is the master of the little digs ? "Honey, why on earth would you cook eggs in butter? NO ONE does it that way. What‘s wrong with you?" Or, "If you‘d only do what I say then we‘d both be happy."
He issues the "silent treatment" when he is slighted, punishing his family by ignoring them for hours, leaving them wondering what they did "wrong" to make him act this way. He may "forget" birthday or Christmas presents, year after year. He may show up hours late and his partner is just supposed to understand, with no explanation even offered. He may have another woman on the side and feel quite entitled to do so.
Yet, to those outside his inner kingdom he looks like a saint. He probably is president of the Rotary, volunteers at a food bank, and contributes regularly to charity ? all to attain the image of being the admired Superman of his community.
No matter which type of narcissist he is, the end result is the same ? a slow, insidious, breaking down of the self-esteem of his victims until there‘s next to nothing left, at which point, the narcissist will frequently throw his partner out in order to look for someone new and full of life to make his next target. Leaving his victim an emotional wreck wondering what she did to destroy their once "perfect" relationship.
The Narcissist himself rarely changes. After all, if you believe you‘re God-like, you must be perfect. Why should you change your behavior for anyone else? Yet the biggest secret is that deep inside, he loathes himself, and is desperate that no one find out who the "real" person is inside his tough, outer shell.
Victims are not only spouses. They can be coworkers, employees, children, or friends of narcissists. When the narcissist is the victim‘s mother, it‘s a difficult spot to be in, as most children (even grown children) find it almost impossible to leave the relationship. And the abuse continues for years.
However, when the narcissist is your patient‘s boss, coworker, or friend, it may be wise to counsel the victim to seek a new situation elsewhere to best avoid an emotional roller coaster ride that could lead to extreme health issues down the road.
How can you help those with Narcissism Victim Syndrome? First, by asking questions to determine what is going on in their environment. Health care professionals already know the effect that stress has on so many of us, but the added stress of living with a narcissist is rarely understood or recognized by the victims themselves. Knowledge is power and by asking the right questions about their situation, you might be able to help them begin to better recognize their problem and seek help.
You can help them quit being victims, quit blaming themselves for all that‘s wrong in their relationships, gain knowledge of this disorder, and regain their personal power. Help them to seek counseling from a therapist knowledgeable about narcissism, (not all are, and few fully understand victim issues at all - see www.helpfromsurvivors.com), in order to rebuild their shattered self-esteem and stop looking and acting like a caged animal.
Help them find hope, before years of stuffing their anger due to this abusive treatment, leads them to venting in unhealthy ways, sometimes leading to domestic violence and police intervention. Help them to stop looking like the sick one in the relationship and to start down the road of being a survivor and no longer a victim. Help them escape symptoms of depression that may, in some cases, lead to suicide.
Learn all you can about the "Narcissism Victim Syndrome". You might light a glimmer of hope for someone who‘s just barely hanging on for dear life.
Mary Jo Fay, RN, MSN is a national speaker, author, columnist and survivor of several narcissistic relationships. Her new book, "When Your Perfect Partner Goes Perfectly Wrong - Loving or Leaving the Narcissist in Your Life" is available at http://www.helpfromsurvivors.com or http://www.outoftheboxx.com. She can be reached at 303-841-7691.
Copyright by Mary Jo Fay, RN, MSN
Please know...IT IS NOT ALL YOUR FAULT...and in seeking therapy, it would help to find someone WELL VERSED in the dynamics of ABUSERS..including Malignant Narcissists.....not someone who REVICTIMIZES you with thier IGNORANCE!
Hang in there....you are on a POSITIVE PATH!
Don‘t let anyone or anything deter you from seeking a positive outcome for YOUR FUTURE!
peace...Kristin
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| Topic: What is a narcissist? Is he???
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| Subject: What is a narcissist? Is he??? - Posted: 5/4/2007 12:19:02 PM
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GET AWAY they are CRAZY and dangerous and will ruin your life any way they can and then blame it all on you!
MRose....I‘m sorry that you were conned by someone without a Conscience too...It always AMAZED me how they can dish it out without CARE, but can‘t take it like a MAN!
NO ONE DARES INSULT THE ALMIGHTY N...But he can do anything he pleases to torment his victims?
YOU MUST be EVERYTHING they are NOT! Or else. You are unceremoniously DISCARDED.And after the idealization phase they put you through,...it is the LOWEST of EGO BLOWS...I dont‘ think humilation even touches it as a definition of how i was left in a crumbled mess as he LAUGHED and walk off as IF he was entitled to do so.
I have NEVER wanted to KILL SOMEONE...until i met a N.
Instead...i walked away with what little pride and dignity i managed to hold onto...and DIFFUSED THE POWER STRUGGLE between TRUTH AND DENIAL.
NOT easy to do when you KNOW you are in the RIGHT...but what other options DO THEY GIVE YOU?
They have SO many covert and overt tactics that make YOU FEEL CRAZY for having minimal expecations of HUMAN DECENCY...
They can be so scary and manipulative and setting them straight is so pointless as they LIVE thier lives in DENIAL and have SO MANY defense mechanisms to protect themselves from the TRUTH...
I went MAD trying to effect the ineffectual.
I heard a saying that made alot of sense to me....
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again , and trying to get DIFFERENT RESULTS...
That is what people with abandonment issues do.(Which is ALSO just a part of what makes someone Anti-Social...FEAR OF ABANDONMENT.)Which is the other side of the abuse spectrum of Unhealthy Narcissism.)Until they break that cycle by facing thier demons, people will continue to harm others or allow others to harm them.
Try to tell THAT to a N...LOL!
It sucked to be forced to relive and face my entire past,(to be left responsible for a N‘s actions felt like THE MOST UNFAIR thing i have been through..BAR NONE)...and all of my disappointments and abusers actions against me in life, just to get over this one person...but i have..and it all fit into the puzzle i call my life‘s challenges.
I am BETTER FOR having known a Narcissist...
I only say that because it made me understand the kinds of minds that hurt me in the past, why i reacted to them the way I did....and it taught me what Forgiveness means.For myself and others.
I still find it amazing that these people even exist...but i know why....and i feel sorry for them all...they live such SHALLOW and LOVELESS LIVES.
But i feel more sorry for thier victims...as i know what it feels like to be SHAMED and Discarded for caring ABOUT OURSELVES!
I sure hope this helps others understand...WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THEM!
take care...kristin
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| Topic: What is a narcissist? Is he???
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| Subject: What is a narcissist? Is he??? - Posted: 5/4/2007 12:39:09 PM
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"So what do you think, is this a narcissist?"
I would say he has some serious problems with intimacy and trust and BTW...most Malignant Narcissists are very insecure...and wounded..and seem broken from the inside out...they use that as a way to get us to pity them..and then WHAM..we are thier victims..
Healthy Narcissism means having healthy self esteem.
Unhealthy Narcissism means taking to much selfishly thanks to entitlement issues or giving too much away of ourselves as if we aren‘t as important as others....We are the Ying to thier Yang...and they can see us a mile away.
"By the way, from reading all your posts, I realised that the key to all this, is decision and willpower. This seems to have been the decisive factor in your healing, isn‘t it?"
Bottom line..i had to ALLOW myself to get PISSED OFF..i was WAY to forgiving and understanding of HIS limitations...in my past..had i been assertive or demanding of RESPECT...i would not have had ANYONE to love, as most of the people in my life were Controlling and manipulative and only showed me what CONDITIONAL Love was....i learned to settle long before him...he was just ICING ON this cake!
It took ALOT of abuse to get me to give up on him...and in effect myself.I KNEW i had rights...and leaving felt like he WON...
IN the end...i realized it was just another power struggle he didn‘t have the ability to diffuse..so I did.
I also realized...he hated me for loving him despite his misdeeds.
What man truly respects a woman who allows herself to be abused by him...
In reality...not a one...once they beat us down to nothing.....they move on to beat someone else down.
We have a CHOICE if we are to be beaten down...i chose NOT to be.
It takes all of ONE second to make that choice...if we are finally AWARE of what we are doing...settling.
Who needs will power when it comes to leaving an abuser?
All it really comes down to is ADMITTING to ourselves that we are WORTH MORE THAN THAT!
And we can give ourselves permission to move on...and seek better.
Sometimes...it takes alot more...especially if someone has been with an abuser for YEARS...and the damage is deeper than others...and the Betrayal Bond is harder to break...but...knowledge gave me courage and strength to forgo my own MALIGNANT OPTIMISM...
I just plain GAVE UP ON HIM...
Kristin
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| Topic: sinking into deep dark depression
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| Subject: sinking into deep dark depression - Posted: 5/9/2007 8:07:44 AM
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((((LOU LOU))))
I am having SUCH a hard time posting here...dial up is such a pain!
I wanted you to know that for a long time afterwards...i cried. NO WEPT.I refused any type of Anti-Depressant due to my internal understanding that i NEEDED to CRY and MOURN all of my lifes disappointments and shocks and betrayals and abandonments...that i had RUN FROM.
It‘s OK to cry.To feel depressed. To me it is a validation of my pain to cry.I never wanted to hide from it or run from it.It is what it is.I still cry.
I was CHALK full of tears i hid, even from myself.
CRY...GET out all the years of REPRESSED EMOTION.
It did me a world of good to set it free.
Depression, IMO is environmental despair.The longer you hold it in, the bigger the pain becomes.
Life IS disappointing, as are people and love.Ok...now what?
What i do hear though is that you are still internalizing being abandoned, abused and hurt by others. I do understand how that feels...but there is HOPE...i swear...it is in your hands finally...
YOU can change who you love and how you feel about your past.Take BACK the POWER your abusers stole from you!!!!!!!!!
The goal i think is to REFRAME your past.To change it from a negative to a positive.
Just THINK....had your mother kept you, how much WORSE your life might have been.
My mother tried to DROWN me when i was 3, and she was on Mescaline... Luckily, someone noticed me bobbing in the ocean and called the cops...I was immediately taken away by Social Services and she was taken into Custody where a Psychologist DX‘ed her with Schizophrenia...thanks to her OWN family history. My Grandfather had killed my grand mother and then himself WHILE thier children were small,(my mother and uncle) and left them for someone else to find and deal with...my mother was SCARED for life by that event.When she got pregnant with me at 17...she was so illprepared to nurture me , let alne love me, it was a BENEFIT to be abandoned by her...to this day...i do NOT blame her....she too was a VICTIM of circumstances.The fact that she and most others hurt me in life and left me to fend for myself was NEVER a reflection of my lack of WORTH..NEVER..I was innocent. To add insult to injury...soon after i was given over to my mothers adoptive mother...i was sexually abused for a year of my life..talk about SCARY! Not to mention...that same woman who BLAMED me for my OWN sexual abuse was a Malignant Narcissist whose only goal in life was to PROTECT HER IMAGE...which left me and 2 other siblings WITHOUT professional help after we finally told on our perp.I ended up bulemic thanks to all that REPRESSED fear and lack of control and FINALLY in therapy at 16..and so the saga began...one Sociopathic B/F after the other...an abusive husband, only t THINK i have found my "perfect" man well...that was the MOST PROFOUND SHOCK of them all...needless to say...by 36 I was SPENT!
DONE..in dire need of CRYING..I was so TIRED...i slept all the time.
I had a baby in the midst of a CLINICAL Depression...Talk about ACHINGLY painful.
But i made it through..and SO CAN YOU!
The goal for me at this point in my life is to SEEK THE POSITIVE..in people, in myself, in NOT letting them WIN because they were too limited to give me the tools i needed to survive in a less self destructive way.Or because they TOO had abandonment issues...commitment issues, passive aggressive disorders Nism, Sociopathic personality disorders . Which i can to find...are NOT actually intentional...they are EMPATHILESS.
They can‘t even HELP themselves...HOW can they help restore OUR faith in humanity...when they are what took us down?
At least WE STILL CARE...about ourselves and others..We could be ALOT worse off considering our childhoods.
It may have taken me 35 years or so to figure it out..but once you do...life is alot less painful.
So you see...emotional survival is dependant on PERSECTIVE....The men who have hurt you are NOT SPECIAL...they were dysfunctional.Just as our parents were...FORGIVE THEM but stay FAR AWAY from anyone who hurts you...and NEVER forget...
http://www.celebratelove.com/forgive.htm
Forgiveness is an act of the imagination. It dares you to imagine a better future, one that is based on the blessed possibility that your hurt will not be the final word on the matter. It challenges you to give up your destructive thoughts about the situation and to believe in the possibility of a better future. It builds confidence that you can survive the pain and grow from it.
Telling someone is a bonus! It is not necessary for forgiveness to begin the process that heals the hurt. Forgiveness has little or nothing to do with another person because forgiveness is an internal matter.
Choice is always present in forgiveness. You do not have to forgive AND there are consequences. Refusing to forgive by holding on to the anger, resentment and a sense of betrayal can make your own life miserable. A vindictive(depressive) mind-set creates bitterness and lets the betrayer claim one more victim.
Why would THIER totally Empathiless OPINION of you even count for anything? KEEP COUNTING YOUR BLESSINGS HE DUMPED YOU...
Please...know...you ...are going to BE OK!
Keep reaching...never give up hope...and open your eyes to your son...he is WORTH healing for.All you can do now is try to Break the cycles for yourself and him...
YOU CAN DO IT!
p.s.Some would suggest anti-depressants...i can‘t say that would not help...i just chose to CRY IT OUT...i needed to.
hugs..Kristin
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| Topic: sinking into deep dark depression
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| Subject: sinking into deep dark depression - Posted: 5/11/2007 6:38:59 AM
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| "I hear when you say you miss the friendship. I MISS THAT TOO! Despite all the nastiness and put downs we were like ‘lost souls‘ together. He had the same background of a painful childhood like me although he abused and i became the abused. This is the bit I don‘t understand because they must be MASTER manipulators if they can convince us that we are made for each other. This is the bit I am struggling with. Even if he had other women, betrayed my trust, abused me, I would like to hold on to the fact that he made a good friend out of me and he messed it up. But unfortunately too, from what I read, these men are so emotionally distant lacking any empathy, he wouldn‘t care AT ALL about that. And that‘s what hurts. I feel like a confused child that doesn‘t UNDERSTAND why someone they love has abandoned them.Friends to me and friendship bonds are SO important to me due to my upbringing. I value my friends when my family weren‘t there for me, so it doubly HURTS to know that the caring, fun, intellectual, sharing, loving side of me that my friends for many years know and love was another asset of ME he trampled on, i am having REAL difficulty getting over this. I guess I am no where near accepting it, and like you Lou Lou, I look out for his car where ever I go, and I would love to see him again or speak to him, but there‘s no point. He has moved on to his next victim.
But I know I‘ll never be able to trust a man again simply because I do not know how to detect whether they are genuine or not, and the price I pay for my past is being forever lonely. I wear my heart on my sleeve....and now it seems I will have to be emotionally distant/cold like my abusers?
I don‘t get it. All I know is I miss him terribly. I cannot accept my loss. Still.
Paisley...I can still feel ALL Of what you wrote 3 years out.I wish i could tell you that you WILL totally accept this as Truth...i can‘t.I met the "Man of my Dreams" 10 years ago...i left him 3 years ago..and today...i still feel the pain, humilation and shock.
I choose to forgive him so i don‘t destroy myself.But i will NEVER truly comprehend...or condone or forget.
I can‘t lie.
It lives in me like a virus...without an antibiotic to heal me completely.But i hang onto the FACT that i never deserved this...nor did i ASK FOR IT...it just happened.
I miss my friend too...or at least who he lead me to TRUST he was..
Time away helps...but in the end...i feel tainted. For life.
It is very hard for me to trust my own judgement anymore.And knowing these types of people exist...truly makes me doubt humanity at a base level.I needed someone to RESTORE my faith...not DESTROY IT.
Hang in there...and know..you are FAR from alone...in your inability to accept that your love meant nothing...and it didn‘t reflect on your worth.
IT ALL SURE FELT LIKE THAT BY THE WAY THEY HANDLE IT.
I figure...HIS LOSS.
But it took me a LONG time to get there...i kept telling myself...i wasn‘t WORTH LOVING..as THAT was how ALL abandonments and betrayals felt to me.
BULLSHIT! I AM WORTH IT..
He just didn‘t have the COURAGE to actually care...let alone love me...
Oh..and remember...Abandoners INDUCE thier own abandonment thanks to thier OWN COMMITMENT PHOBIAS...It really has VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH US...
Stop internalizing it if you can...and definately try to stop GLORIFYING HIM...
REMEMBER THE ABUSE! That was the REAL PART.
Hugs...Kristin
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| Topic: sinking into deep dark depression
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| Subject: sinking into deep dark depression - Posted: 5/11/2007 7:06:28 AM
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"And you are completely right, forgiveness is one of the most powerful way of healing and letting go. I do forgive easily however and I‘ve actually been told that I should be angrier, express it more... Because after all, I have to learn to protect myself and to stand up for myself, something I don‘t know how to do since I always end up with abusers and not defending myself."
Oh Lou Lou...please don‘t misunderstand me...When i say...FORGIVENESS...I do NOT mean condoning, trying to be "friends" again with,forgetting anything in the name of LOVE...or thinking that they somehow DESERVE another chance after the amount we ALREADY gave them thanks to our OWN FEARS, i do not mean Continuing to be Betrayal bonded to an abuser,allowing them to confuse us with thier Approach/Avoidance and intermittant postivie reinforcement, allowing our abandonment issues to make us "forget" what they have done to HURT US DEEPLY,I do not mean unconditional forgiveness.
They don‘t CARE if we forgive them...they only USE that as a ploy to sink thier "Evil" teeth back into our hearts..as they KNOW we are WEAK thanks to them decimating our self esteem..and attempting to CONTROL us through our NURTURING SPIRITS and OVERLY responsbile natures.
Mine kept me on a string for YEARS...without a single intention of doing the RIGHT THING.
It was all just a GAME he had to win...and in punishing me he found satifaction in his HATRED for women.
I was WAY too forgiving and understanding and all that did was create a chance for him to TAKE full advantage of me ALL THE MORE.
Forgiveness means NOTHING to some...and for others...it comes with Expectations of CHANGE...that these people just don‘t have the capacity to do.
When is ay Forgive them...i mean..MOVE FAR WAY from the love you felt and PROTECT YOUSELF by NEVER and i mean NEVER ALLOW them back into your life.
Unless you are willing to ACCEPT that you are willing to tolerate MORE ABUSE by them...as most abusers NEVER change thier TRUE COLORS..
They can‘t...they dont‘ have the tools.
I used to think that IF i offered someone forgiveness..Actually...if they ASKED FOR IT, attempted to MAKE AMMENDS and we MIGHT be able to RECONCILE the past together.
With the people I have known..that NEVER was possible.including my own birth mother...who NEVER once even offered an apology for having left me high and dry as a child.....I have found it ONLY works with people with CONSCIENCES and EMPATHY..
Anyone else...is a WASTE OF FORGIVENESS.
I ONLY forgive to save myself MORE PAIN..MORE ANGER and MORE BITTERNESS than what they already caused me.
Some people are just LOST CAUSES you MUST PROTECT yourself from by cutting monumental emotional losses...
And in order to MOVE forward...professionals suggest we learn to FORGIVE..CONDITIONALLY.
If someone finds no need to ask for forgiveness and SHOW CHANGE over long periods of time,...there is really NO WAY we should EVER allow them back into our hearts...let alone lives.
I found this for you to CLARIFY what FORGIVENESS IS..and WHOM it is for..NOT THEM...so much as ourselves...
Especially when we are LEFT WITHOUT CLOSURE or Comprehension as to WHY they abused our trust in the first place.
http://www.forgivenessday.org/steps_to_forgiveness.htm
Steps to Forgiveness
1. Confront your emotional pain - your shock, fear, anger, and grief. Recognize that the hurt that has occurred may have been very unfair and that these steps are not meant to minimize the hurt involved.
2. Realize that forgiveness can only be appropriate after you have processed out your fear, anger, and grief. However, also realize that you can set forgiveness as a goal in the future for your sake now! Recognize that to continue to dwell on the anger and resentment involved in the hurt will literally destroy your physical health, and cause you great mental suffering.
New studies clearly show that anger and resentment doubled the risk of myocardial heart attacks in women with previous coronary problems. Other studies indicate cancer and other deadly illnesses are also caused by anger and resentment. So be willing, for your sake, to begin to process out these deadly emotions as soon as possible.
3. Understand that love is what you ultimately want for yourself from yourself.
4. Understand that forgiveness does not condone or approve or forget the harmful acts; forgiveness does not allow yourself to be abused. We forgive the doer, not the doing. Remembering this helps us to break harmful cycles of behavior.
5. Realize that you are the only person responsible for your own feelings and for healing the hurt that is going on inside of you.
6. Remember that you are so powerful that usually you had some part in what happened. Be willing to totally face up to that part and accept it without blame (to forgive and love that part).
7. See this situation as an opportunity for healing and for growth. See that the other person involved has revealed to you through his or her actions where there was a wounded spot in you which needed healing.
8. Start releasing anger, sadness, grief, and fear through the many processes, therapies and therapists available. Have a person to work with who can truly empathize with you, yet who can be objective and help you shift your perception from blame to healing.
9. Decide to forgive. Even if this decision is half-hearted at first, it will probably lessen your hurt and anger immediately.
Notice that this decision can be difficult because after you have processes out the anger, resentment and grief, you will have to give up the grudge - the being the "victim", the "being right" and making the other person "wrong". Notice that this is "superior" position which can be used to get a lot of self-righteous attention. Be willing, for your sake to have the courage to get off that "superior" position.
10. Be willing to find a new way to think about the person who wronged you. What was his or her life like growing up? What was his or her life like at the time of the offense? What were this person‘s good points up to the time of the hurt? Notice you may not be able to see much good within until you have processed out your anger and/or grief or fear.
11. Be aware that being forgiving is a courageous act on your part. It has nothing to do with whether the other person can admit they are wrong. You are forgiving to liberate yourself no matter what the other person decides to do.
12. Be willing to do and learn whatever it takes to forgive. Commit to do processes, to read courageous stories of forgiveness, to write in journals, to see a therapist, to do training’s, or to do whatever it takes to heal the wounds involved. Remember these wounds may be deeply tied to past hurts going back to your interactions with your parents. Resolve to follow them through for your total healing, even if it involves years of effort to heal. Remember that you are determined to find the true happiness and joy that true forgiveness can bring to your life.
13. If you believe in a Higher Power, be willing to pray on this problem and to turn to this Higher Power for guidance and assistance in the forgiveness process.
14. Accept the lessons involved in this incident — our lives are laboratories for learning. What have you learned from this event that is invaluable to you? Has some form of attachment to a belief or beliefs a position has caused you the pain involved? What belief or beliefs were involved?
15. See that everything is okay; possibly perfect, as it is now.
16. If you have the willingness and it is appropriate, seek feedback from the other person by being willing to say "I‘m sorry that I did..." (whatever it is that you feel contributed to the problem).
17. Regardless of what the other person does, work towards seeing them with love and goodness. Know that therefore love and goodness are thus flowing to you for your mental and physical health and well-being.
Wishing you HEALING FORGIVENESS...for you LOU LOU. and Paisley....NOT FOR HIM...or them...for you.
He has to contend with his inability to love, care, or change in his own time.If ever...That is just NOT your problem anymore...
YOU TRIED TO NO AVAIL TO EFFECT THE INEEFECTUAL...
There is no shame in that...only in doing the same thing again..with another person who is emotionally unavailable..
Hugs...Kristin
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| Topic: sinking into deep dark depression
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| Subject: sinking into deep dark depression - Posted: 5/11/2007 11:47:08 AM
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"However after my son passed away as a baby, I did not want to live at all".
Andrea...NOTHING..and i mean NOTHING could be worse to ME than losing a child...i have 3 and if any one of them passed away...let alone as babies...
I would be permanently inconsolable..and ALL else would fall by the wayside!
ALL LOVE LOSSES ***ALL STUPID MEN***ALL ABUSERS*** ALL ABANDONMENTS**** ALL EMOTIONAL TRAMA‘s *****ALL OF it would be MOOT!
I am SO sorry for YOUR LOSS!
Nothing in my life is as important to me as my children..NOT EVEN MYSELF.Andmy selfish concerns..
They are MY innocent bystanders..and i LIVE TO PROTECT THEM..Who would if i was gone?
How did you cope?
Thank you for your recommended books..For me..KNOWLEGDGE is POWER! And since therapist usually had NO CLUE how to handle ALL my issues...I seek as much imput on my own as i can.
If you were talking to me...thank you for the credit for surviving.
Life is GOOD!
Peace...Kristin
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| Topic: sinking into deep dark depression
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| Subject: sinking into deep dark depression - Posted: 5/11/2007 5:39:05 PM
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Thanks for all your help, Kristin and Paisley, and your friendship.
You‘re more than welcome...Thank you for yours...
Listen..without sounding judgemental..
Why do you want to be HIS friend at this point..it seems as if it was always way too one sided...and definately lacking in care for you.
I think you deserve more...don‘t you?
I recall the days...i was ALWAYS his friend..he was never mine.It got VERY OLD and so unfair...i felt way too used to continue to try.
Not to mention..i gave him EVERYTHING...and he gave me SHIT.
I just hope you will protect yourself.
These guys can be such emotional vultures...they take all they can and then discard you...
That isn‘t friendship..that‘s Friend shit!
Take care of you...he is taking care of himself......and know..i understand how hard it is to totally disengage...but once you do..the fog lifts and reality takes it‘s place and one day he will be a distant memory of someone you learned what you didn‘t want from....
Kristin
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| Topic: sinking into deep dark depression
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| Subject: sinking into deep dark depression - Posted: 5/12/2007 12:09:42 PM
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| Hi Kristin,
I can‘t explain why I wanted to be his friend... I guess it‘s maybe to hang on to some bit of him that I have left. I guess because he rejected me so brutally (all the while saying "You will call me back, you‘ll see" so he was not really thinking I would go away...), this indifference is unbearable, and I try to go and repair things... I would just like to be able to talk calmly with him.
I know the men we know are different...BUT...the same in some respects i am sure...i tried to effect his indifference towards me for SO LONG i lost ALL MY PRIDE, DIGNITY and SELF ESTEEM.That is WHY i am so fiesty NOW...i have NOT spoken to him in 3 years...and YES...all the time i tried only hurt me more...i HAD TO GIVE UP.....i am worried you might end up like me. Feeling 100% WORSE for wasting time the way i did.Only to be rejected over and over again...it hurt so badly to see him walk away time and time again as IF i meant nothing...then seem to care then back again...There is no repairing some things is all i mean..but,you have to be the judge of your own situation.
I mean you have much more feistiness in you than me. This is what I meant about not being angry and feisty enough. I don‘t defend myself. I get abused, treated with the utmost scorn and then, I go back and beg to be friends. I guess I have no dignity and extreme self-destructive tendencies.
LMAO!!! If you only knew me for REAL..Darlin! I have had the hardest life and half of it is my own FAULT!If you only knew.I have to add too that being Betrayal bonded to an abusers carried it‘s OWN set of issues!
Am really struggling here and it‘s back and forth, sometimes I would sell my soul to the devil to see him again, other time I hope I never see him again and think I should just fly to the other side of the world. It‘s just so difficult.
I know it is...TRULY i do..i LOVED HIM SO MUCH! I NEVER wanted to say goodbye..EVER...he forced me to with the way he treated me...like i was DIRT.What can i say...i abandoned he and i and it hurt...me more than him...
On with life he went...while I dealt with it all in my own life as if I never even existed.in his heart or mind...HE WAS DONE...
I EXIST! And i deserved 100% more than he EVER had to give me...I felt so tramatized for knowing him..the HORRENDOUS finally just outwieghed the MAGNIFICENT.
All i know is this...you are the only one who can step off the emotional rollercoaster...and you will..when youa re ready.
OH..BTW..it helped me to MOVE 1200 miles away...that way...i NEVER see his car anymore...and i can‘t STOP him and force him to TALK TO ME like a HUMAN BEING...
Good luck...and know..i am FAR from looking down on you...like i said..
I can‘t give details here that wouldn‘t make me look like a LUNATIC over someone who held all the cards...with indifference.
I sure hope paisley is ok!
Kristin
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| Topic: My Mother is not my friend!
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| Subject: My Mother is not my friend! - Posted: 5/13/2007 6:07:31 AM
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I‘ve decided to get a job quick an leave. If my mother needs help she will have to depend on them because I‘ve had enough, but I would still like to know... "What is wrong with this picture?"
EVERYTHING is wrong with this picture and in reality...there is NOTHING you can do to change any of it..but get as far away as possible to self preserve.
Sounds like your Mother has raised/enabled and is Codependant to a couple of Narcissistic PIGS!
And now she is suffering the consequences.As are her sons.
That is FAR from your fault or responsibility.
Feel lucky that she has been so hard on you, so you are NOT like them.
I grew up in much the same environment...but thankfully...i left at 18 and NEVER went back.My family SICKENED ME.And it was way too easy to impose NO CONTACT with them.
We can attempt to fix and rescue others, but in the end...we just get KICKED in the teeth for our efforts.
Don‘t WASTE your time...not every family is functional.
I think getting a job and getting outta there is your best bet at survival.
Good Luck with YOUR life!
They all sound way too far gone to effect.
RambleOn
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| Topic: sinking into deep dark depression
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| Subject: sinking into deep dark depression - Posted: 5/14/2007 3:42:37 AM
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Paisley...
So glad to see that you are OK...and am happy for you and your son getting in some REAL HUMAN TIME...Youa re so right..it takes some real effort to regain yourself after an abusive relationship...It sounds like you are on a much healthier track...Give it time...and you will see...feeling scarred for life by them is not the TRUE outcome of this...It is temporary as long as YOU let it be.
I have been at this for years...and seeking and offering support..and the one thing i have noticed is that some women hand onto and Catastrophize and stand so superior to others that they never truly heal.
I can admit to myself that i was not perfect...but i do know i do NOT lack Empathy or a Consceince and that i can be very proud of.
I thought I loved my ex but that emotion is totally wasted on these types of people who have to FALSIFY themselves in order to BE WORSHIPPED. Whatever shit I am going through in my life, cannot even begin to be what they wake up to every morning....THEMSELVES and another day of lying to themselves and everyone else.
WOW! You sure have a handle on the TRUTH of these men...i have always pitied them and how they feel so WORTHLESS they must make others feela s badly as they do...But at this point...know that staying away is MY RESPONSIBILITY...No one can hurt us if we don‘t ALLOW IT...
I worry about therapy...people here are saying one-2-one therapy often doesn‘t address these mentioned issues. After my first disastrous session do I risk going to another one? Would I be wasting my money? I am not sure whether I‘m better off reading and using this wonderfully supportive forum of understanding women than go to a stranger who would have difficulty understanding complex abusive relationships, childhood traumas and trauma bonds etc etc?
I can tell you honestly...i NEVER got as much out of therapy as i did forums...but sometimes it came become a double edged sword...There have been some places that made me feel WORSE about myself than better...
My last therapist said....." You seem to feel taken advantage of.."
NO SHIT LADY!
I began a challenge of seeking ANSWERS via the internet and came to some VERY disenheartening, but CLEAR conclusions that have truly helped me grow.,stop blaming myself and WAK UP to the reality that i am NOT a walking target for any other reason than that i am vulnerable, trusting and down right caring...I just never saw the truth of some people because i projected my TRUSTWORTHINESS onto others who didn‘t possess CHARACTER ..Conscience of Empathy...NO emotional obligations to others does NOT make me the one in the WRONG...for loving.
..There has GOT to be therapists out there you "GET IT" but finding one...isn‘t easy.
The woman who answers questions here..Sandra Brown is trained in dealing with both Victims and Sociopaths...i only WISH i had seen her in an office setting LONG ago.
I get answers peace meal and try to assimilate them into my life...any knowledge is Power to me...
I am glad to see that you are OK...every day away is that much more progress...
NC for you ....will make all the difference..
As these people are NO ONES FRIENDS...
Hugs...Kristin
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| Topic: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive?
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| Subject: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive? - Posted: 5/14/2007 6:29:26 AM
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My fiancess is in his post doc year of clinical psychology.
An abusive clinical Psychologist? Red Flag #1
When we first got together he monopolized my time, calling 9-10 times a day.
Red Flag #2
If he could not reach me while I was at work on im or phone he would show up. This resulted in me losing my job.
Red Flag #3
We moved together shortly after that, soon after he started telling me how stupid I am.
Red Flag #4
We started have sex less.
Red Flag #4
About six months ago he was trying to smash down the leaves and fell down, he got so mad that he screamed at me and lifted me off the ground by squeezing my shoulders.
Red Flag #5
Then last month he stared spending more time with his research assistants, they are ten years younger than I. He invited me to a party for them, and then told me I couldn‘t go.
Red Flag #6
Last week his anger rose to an all time high when he started yelling at me about a bill and I went into the restroom to avoid the agruement and as I was shutting the door he pulled my hair and pushed his way in. He then took his hands and smashed my face.
Red Flag #7
Everytime I try to talk to him about the anger he tells me it‘s my fault or that I am crazy. That I have caused him to be insecure, to want to react to me.
Red Flag #8
Am I crazy?
Only IF you marry him.
I want to VALIDATE your concerns. This man is DANGEROUS to yours and potentially OTHERS mental health.
Having been Professionally exploited by an abusive Narcissist...i can attest.
NO GOOD CAN COM FROM THIS RELATIONSHIP!
FORGET his apologies...STOP forgiving him in the HOPES that he is sincere, or that he will STOP HURTING YOU..emotinally and physically..He is MORE than dysfunctional and really, should NOT be given a liscense to Practice ANYTHING..let alone Psychology.
Besides being a HORRIBLE choice for a husband...
He is a PROFESSIONAL EXPLOITER in the making and all that time he spends with his assistants could be on the line of Boundary Violations for all you know.I can totally SEE HIM being accused of being an UNETHICAL PROFESSIONAL.....and you ultimately ending up needing a place like this to recover...along with many, many clients/victims in his future..are you willing to RISK THAT?
http://www.advocateweb.org/hope/moreaboutexploitation.asp
Mental health professionals, psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, therapists, doctors, nurses, clergy, attorneys, professors, educators, social workers, law enforcement officers, or other professionals who either pursue or even allow a sexual relationship to develop with their patients/clients often are taking advantage of an inherent power imbalance in the relationship. Sexual exploitation does not always include sexual contact -- it can happen in a variety of behaviors by the professional. Frequently this is an exploitation of the client‘s trust or emotional dependency and/or their need for the professional‘s help. Sometimes it is the result of the professional imposing coercive power over the client. Either way, this is considered abuse, even if the client was a "consenting" participant at the time. It is an abuse of the client‘s trust and dependence on the professional. It also is a betrayal of the trust imparted on the professional by society. This form of abuse often deeply violates clients and sometimes causes tremendous spiritual, emotional, and psychological harm.
I hate to sound dramatic..but really...how many RED FLAGS do you need to end this for yourself?
Please consider the fact that THIS MAN HIS serious issues..and JUST because he "LOOKS GOOD ON PAPER" doesn‘t mean anything.
He has been warning you for a long time now about his abusiveness..when will you hear him?
Please just re-read your own words and pull your head out of the sand...denial and FALSE HOPE OF CHANGE will only get you in even deeper...
ramble on
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| Topic: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive?
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| Subject: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive? - Posted: 5/14/2007 7:14:47 AM
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http://www.coping.org/growth/accept.htm
Accepting Personal Responsibility
Self-Esteem
If your Fiancee had an OUNCE of Qualification to be a Professional Clinical Psychologist..let alone a loving, kind and caring human being..he would KNOW that what he is doing to you is WRONG on EVERY LEVEL possible. Why not try teaching him a REAL Lesson by LEAVING HIM!
What would you really be losing? But a loser.
ramble on
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| Topic: Total f***ng shock!!!
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| Subject: Total f***ng shock!!! - Posted: 5/14/2007 11:27:16 AM
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((((Lou Lou))))
Suck Buddies? Great....Just when you think it can‘t get any worse...
Now..i am worried about your HEALTH!
How often did you have unprotected sex with this SCUM!!??
How long do you think this has been going on behind your back?
And WHY would he BOTHER to try and PLAY that kind of game with YOU,if he is INTO MEN?
Oh wait..I know..TO PROTECT his IMAGE...
NOTHING surprises me about a Narcissist.The slither like snakes through the grass of society and bite others just for the fun of it.
I think some secrets are better left unknown...but now that you know, you can STOP crying, STOP Blaming yourself. Stop Wasting your time on this Dirt Bag.
HOW terrible for you to have to face this!
I am so sorry that the reality of him and what you felt and did in the name of love is so disgusting!
Being Conned is the most disillusioning ascpect of these people.It makes you feel like you are the most IGNORANT person, next to them, on the planet.
I am here to remind you....YOU ARE NOT IGNORANT!
You were intentionally DUPPED by a very messed up person.
DO NOT TAKE THAT PERSONALLY...
It could have been ANY trusting and unsuspecting woman.
I am SURE that you are considering what REVENGE you can impose on him...and you wouldn‘t be in the wrong for thinking about how to TAKE HIM DOWN for making a FOOL of you....
I can recall feeling JUST like that.Oh..and extremely USED.
Well...i know just how you feel...and if i was you..i might LEAVE him a little message letting him know..you ARE NOT STUPID AS HE THINKS YOU ARE!
I am sorry Lou Lou...but you are ONE SMART COOKIE!
BRAVA for outting him!
kristin
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| Topic: My Mother is not my friend!
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| Subject: My Mother is not my friend! - Posted: 5/14/2007 11:39:03 AM
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Riplets...
"I tried to tell my mom but she waived her hand at me with the same old line that "I don‘t want to hear it." NOW ITS MY TURN.... I‘VE HAD ENOUGH!"
I just wanted to let you know...you are doing the right thing by walking away. They will only hurt you more for caring about them and yourself.
Try to bear in mind...it isnt‘ personal, even though it sometimes FEELS VERY PERSONAL.It‘s just in thier Nature/Nurture to be the way they are.
I know all about it.I have left most of my family in the dust for very similar reasons...
It hurts not to have family....but it hurts more to have totally F**ed up family!
I wanted to tell you also...that you are not alone...and that i am wishing you luck in your new place and in finding a job.
Hang in there...the farther you get away from TOXIC PEOPLE...the sooner you begin to DE-TOX yourself.
Luckily...we don‘t NEED our families to survive..most often..we need to ESCAPE them to THRIVE!
Ramble On
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| Topic: Total f***ng shock!!!
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| Subject: Total f***ng shock!!! - Posted: 5/15/2007 7:03:47 AM
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Lou Lou.............. 
I just feel completely cheated.
Because you HAVE BEEN! And i totally understand!It is SO HARD to Fathom how and why these people treat us with UTTER CONTEMPT.Until you look into the WHY‘s. Then it all makes ALOT of sense.I hate to sound AT ALL sympathetic, but in reality, people do not CHOOSE to be MALADAPTIVE.Let alone Narcissistic,Sociopathic or Anti-Social.
Some psychologists believe it is a Genetic Predisposition influenced by enviornmental "triggers" thanks to abusive, neglectful and/or over bearing mothers, and emotionally distant or non-existant fathers.
Meaning...the Genetics is the "gun" and the environment is the "trigger".I have read ALOT about these Personality Disorders over the years..and while it made little sense to me emotionally, as it HURT so much to have been victimized by a few of them over the years...on an intellectual level...i got it.I truly think it is ALL related to Attachment Disorders, that began between the ages of birth and say, 5. They got STUCK with who they are and have NO CLUE how to rectify any of it for themselves.In reality...it was NOT about YOU per se...it is HOW they treat EVERYONE. Not that that makes it better or somehow alright...it does put things into a less devastaing perspective. At least it did for me.
They LACK empathy and we sometimes provide TOO Much.
I wanted to offer you this site as a way to assimilate the reality of this man into a less personal perspecitve.
I am SO GLAD that you found all this out, as PAINFUL as it is...you can ONLY protect yourself FROM them if you actually KNOW THEM...and thier SECRETS!
The unfortunate part is that they SEEK anyone they can to gain NS..Narcissistic Supply...Male of female...You can be a very nurturing, empathetic and trustworthy person, or you can be a masochist who is willing to tolerate thier abuse..It matters NOT to them that you are HUMAN and have feelings...it is ALL ABOUT THEM. Simply put.....it is about SELFISHNESS.
They can‘t comprehend that we have RIGHTS, FEELINGS or Consciences, because thiers are NOT FULLY developed.If at all.
and you know, this guy looks like a big soft teddy bear, uneasy, shy, reserved. You‘d think he‘s mummys boy.
I could easily assume that He HATES his mother and his abusive childhood is the ROOT of his transgressions against others...you are NOT the first nor will you be the last...
This is why I‘m in such utter shock.
I know all about that kind of shock...and it is truly what keeps me isolated from most people..I can NOT trust others knowing what i know.I am TRUSTWORTHY and CARING and i project that onto others.But that will NEVER mean i can tell who is VACANT emotionally.
And I didn‘t even know such things were going on.
That is JUST how they like things to be...They seem to NEED to DEFY anyone who dares care about them. Anyone who is so trusting that they CAN GET ONE OVER on them..thier GOAL IS TO WIN..and to them..Winning takes misinformation and OMISSION and they are PRO‘S at it...
DON‘T FEEL LIKE A FOOL..HE FOOLED YOU..HE IS THE FOOL!
Have totally fallen apart, today.
No one would blame you for that...i fell apart for a long time,beccause i INTERNALIZED his SHIT for so long...i carried his shame for him..i couldn‘t BELIEVE what i uncovered either it was SO SCARY to think that my JUDGEMENT and COMMON sense was THAT OFF...but you know something...HOW COULD WE KNOW WHO WE WERE ACTUALLY DEALING WITH WHEN THEY LIE LIE LIE ALL THE TIME!
yes..there ARE RED FLAGS..and yes...we do look past them sometimes thanks to our OWN issues...but in the end...WE ARE NOT AT FAULT for being CONNED...the premise of a Confidence Artist is that they INTENTIONALLY HIDE information (WITHHOLD)to hold onto the POWER and CONTROL of the WAY we see them...
I asked mine.." Had i KNOWN you do you think i would have DONE a single loving,kind, caring ,protective, thing for you."
He said.."No."
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Much love to you Kristin,you do a lot of good.
Thank you Lou lou..I TRULY hate to see the DESTRUCTION these people CREATE..and my goal is to SUPPORT thier victims with as much compassion as i can.from a place of KNOWING..so that NO ONE FEELS ALONE...i have run into so many women who have gone through this SHIT..it PISSES me off and i figure, if i inform as many women as i can as to who they may be dealing with and how to avoid them and what to do once the truth is on the table..i have DEFIED as many Narcissists that are out there attempting to CON others.
I am trying to OUT them the best I can...WE ALL NEED to KNOW what they dont‘ WANT US TO KNOW...
PASS IT ON! And SAVE someone from the odds of being VICTIMIZED by an Abuser!Or help someone GET OUT...
It is all i have now.I am a survivor armed with the ability to warn and educate..and i can say proudly.
He did NOT TAKE ME DOWN FOR THE COUNT.He ONLY ruined any and all chances that he will have a LEGITIMATE and happy life.
Much love to you too Lou Lou...I can tell that you are a VERY caring and giving person who DIDNT DESERVE to be played this hard...NO one does!
Imagine how hard forgiveness will be now.
I could have RUINED the N i attempted to care for..but he used his innocent bystanders as a manipulative tactic to shield himself from the REVENGE i should have sought against HIM!aNot to mention,He used my own foolishness,guilt and shame as a way to CONTROL me...I have been BURDENED by silence and have NEVER sought justice or JUSTIFIED REVENGE against a single abuser in my life...
I figure...the UNIVERSE SEE‘S ALL..And i REFUSE to ruin my own KARMA or go against my own GOOD CONSCIENCE and let them bring me to thier level...
Not an easy faith to conquer..but i am PROUD that i did NOT hurt him as he hurt me..it made me consider myself better than him..and I AM!
This Quote is what keeps me from DESTROYING someone who destroyed me....
He is SO FAR BENEATH me...i can‘t even DIGNIFY his acts with REVENGE!
I have to add...I did choose to walk away without getting my money back.Or forcing him to be accountable for HIS actions, let alone make it possible for ME to SAVE face in my own life for having TOLD ALL I LOVED this Characterless in -human being...
I ate CROW the size of a COW!
The BEST i could do for ME was to totally DISASSOCIATE myself with his Dysfunctional HATRED of women,,and SUCCEED DESPITE him tripping me and laughing at me while i was down thanks to him...HE WILL GET HIS!
It wasn‘t worth the AGGRIVATION and DISGUST trying to regain ANYTHING he STOLE FROM ME BACK.
If someone so easily STEALS your trust, why would they then give it back?
EVERYONE IS FORCED TO CUTS LOSSES when they deal with a Narcissist.
Welcome to the "club"...You are in GOOD COMPANY!
As i too am a Loving,wealthy, caring, beautiful,creative, talented,independant, sexy woman with TONS of potential and even more to offer a REAL AND GOOD MAN,and THAT is exactly who they love to emotionally dismantle..
It gives them a RUSH to see us CRY.
And guess what...i was NOT crying over losing HIM...it was more about the fact that they DON‘T ALLOW us to care about OURSELVES!No matter how hard i tried...he REFUSED to acknowledge that i had ANY RIGHT TO CARE ABOUT MYSELF..
THAT IS WHY I CRIED!
Not over a loser who left me..I cried because he expected me to STOP caring about myself..And to CARE more about HIM...
WELL..HE LOST...I CARE WAY too much about myself to EVER stoop to HIS LEVEL again.
Sorry..i know this is NOT about me...but i hope that you find a way to understand this situation so it doesn‘t permanently SCAR you.
Then they WIN. We win by diffusing the power struggles between right and wrong, that THEY CREATE...
Hang onto your MORALS and CHARACTER.
It is what makes us unlike them!
Hugs...and best wishes
Kristin
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| Topic: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive?
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| Subject: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive? - Posted: 5/15/2007 12:21:10 PM
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I hope you know...that no one here who is warning you to LEAVE this man hasn‘t had to do it themself.Am I right, ladies?
You seem to have left...But i can only hope that you are processing what the general consensus is here and taking us seriously.
From the little that you described.of your life with this maN..we are concerned about your well being..
But i can imagine how HARD it feels for you to leave.
It was hard for us all.But worth it.
I think it might be a bit easier to find yourself a GOOD QUALIFIED Psychologist outside of HIM...to help you come to terms with this in a slower way.
And also to have a support system that KNOWS YOU personally and can help you to leave him...as i am SURE he will try to hang on as tight as he can...
They ALWAYS do.....Push and Pull...the never ending cycle of manipulation, only YOU can Break!
Wishing you well...and hoping you HEAR US!
Ramble On
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| Topic: Total f***ng shock!!!
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| Subject: Total f***ng shock!!! - Posted: 5/16/2007 3:53:19 AM
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Now I just feel sorry... and overwhelmed with guilt.
LOU LOU!!!!!!
DO NOT FEEL GUILTY!
MY GOD! WHAT HE DID TO YOU IS 100 times worse!
I have to tell you that despite the fact that these people ARE HURT...
The fact IS..their sense of ENTITLEMENT seems to make them feel EXLCUDED from suffering Consequences voluntarily!
If thier was a MORAL COURT to take them to, they would be JAILED for years!
You did MINIMAL DAMAGE in return!
I have to say too, that because i was afraid of mine, i NEVER did anything but Kill him with Kindness..WHAT A DOUBLE fool I was...
I only WISH i had been ANGRY AT HIM enough to hold him accountable.For his ACTIONS...
SCREW their Disorders..THEY SHOULD pay for what they do to others!
I would NEVER want YOU to feel guilty about ANYTHING you did in retaliation!
NEVER!
Shit..you COULD have outted him to his ENTIRE family!
I am PROUD of you!
I am smiling at the vision of what you had the COURAGE to do.
I only wish i had done SOMETHING more than stay silent and let MINE get away with emotional murder.
Again...i am so sorry that he hurt you!
But am SO glad that you took it upon yourself to FIND THE TRUTH AND FACE IT and SCREW WHAT HE THINKS of his blank account!
BRAVA!!!!!!!!
I say what YOU did is what i WISH i could have done...even IF it went against my conscience and morality.
It may have helped me get over him alot sooner...it all felt like he NEVER suffered AT ALL...for what he did to me....
Hang tough!
I know you would have NEVER done anything like that to a DECENT human being!
But we aren‘t talking about decent here are we?
Hugs..Kristin
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| Topic: Total f***ng shock!!!
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| Subject: Total f***ng shock!!! - Posted: 5/16/2007 7:56:28 AM
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And Paisley!
WOW! You have it DOWN PAT already!
Talk about a QUICK LEARNER!
I‘m really impressed...Sometimes it takes people alot longer to comprehend all that information about Narcissism, let alone process it into a way to find closure.
I think you made it!
And listen...you are Very wise to realise that you have issues that lead to these types of people invading your life...I know I did too.
So now that he is "herstory"....how to PROTECT yourself should be next on the agenda.
If you want figure you out...sometimes the best place to look is AT your patterns...very closely...and try to figure out what you keep doing the same was and ending up with the same results..and try to do the opposite.
http://www.angriesout.com/grown17.htm
Mature Healthy Narcissism
Everyone has narcissistic behaviors; it is normal to think of ones self and try to get out needs met. We view the world through our own narrow outlook based on our past history and our conditioning. We all need to care enough about our self (narcissism) to pay our bills and function effectively in life. It is only when selfish behavior gets out of hand does it cause problems for the person and those around him.
“Each of us functions with a core of narcissistic, self focused view of the world,” said Marion Soloman, psychodynamic psychologist. Now we all have a bit of narcissism and indeed need some of it to survive. We all have a bit of selfishness in us and that is okay. Otherwise we would end up giving away everything. We need to learn to receive as well as give to be healthy.
Getting a good balance between taking from others and giving to them is called "Healthy Narcissism" by the psychoanalytic community. Healthy Narcissism is the ability to have reciprocal relationships where the need of each of the partners is balanced with the needs of the other.
Mature Healthy Narcissism is the middle ground between caring for self and the caring for other. It includes those centered, conscious choices that fall within the center of the continuum. It is the equilibrium between taking too much and giving too much in regards to the other person. Moving towards the middle of the Narcissistic-Co-dependency continuum where there is not too much and not too little of either giving too much to others or expecting too much brings balance into a life. By learning the balance between giving too much and taking too much and learning the skills of communication that create intimacy (See books by Harville Hendrix and John Gottman); you can have loving, fulfilling relationships.
I think..it is all about BALANCE between giving and taking..and not many of us have it down pat...but at least we know what the core issue is...more than i can say for a Narcissist.
...i wondered WHY i always loved the unloveable.
Because i ALWAYS had to as a child, thanks to emotionally unavailable parents, having been raped and blamed and abandoned really did a number on me...It is a repetitive pattern.I always GAVE MORE than I got..in any given relationship..WHY?
I didn‘t feel worthy. So I settled..I bargained...i came off as needy and vulnerable...and I pitied others...and they took me for it.
My ex-N absolutely hit on EVERY single issue i had from my past..I spoon fed him such personal information...and all he knew to do was USE IT Against me...and yes..they are MASTERS of PROJECTION....and if we DOUBT ourselves AT ALL..they GET TO US.
Talk about SCARY!
Everyone has different baggage...and we do carry it throughout our lives...dropping some here and adding some there..But in the end..
WE ARE WORTHY OF LOVE....CARE RESPECT AND What we are willing to offer!
I think one of my main problems is that i too have had Unhealthy Naricssism. (self esteem) thanks to years of different abuses and abusers attempting to minimize my worth.)It is hard to feel like I shine when so many have projected this sense of worthlessness onto me.
I never thought i was worthy of GIVING to..so I gave too much of me to people who didn‘t bother to earn it, to try and get them to make ME feel worthy...classic huh?
Also, i have found that those of us who have been abused or abandoned as children turn out one of two ways...TOO EMPATHETIC towards others...or NOT AT ALL empathetic.
I think those LACKING in it can "smell" those Spilling over with it.
We are easy Targets i think.
But we CAN change that...as long as we are AWARE...
Congratulations PAISLEY...
Far cry from the posts that yelled..
HELP ME! I‘m LOST!
Hugs...Kristin
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| Topic: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive?
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| Subject: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive? - Posted: 5/16/2007 8:29:57 AM
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Hi Ana face...Glad you are still here...
First what does ramble on mean?
I am a big Led Zeppelin Fan...Ramble On in thier lyrics means...To keep moving...and hopefully growing!
And for the mere fact that i tend to go on and on when trying to make a simple point. :)
I am processing all of this, it is very hard to come to terms with.
I know...and i am sorry if i am hitting you too "hard" with facts that might not even pertain to your Fiancee...I am assuming alot from your original post.It sounds like this is hurtful to you, and i just want to try and help.
I was married before and had two children with him, he got satisfaction from telling me that I was fat and no one would ever want me. So I had a tummy tuck and lipo and found some courage to leave. I dated alot, met diffrent people and they all seemed not good enough for my boys.
I can imagine it is even harder to admit that this man isn‘t up to par either.It takes alot of courage to keep trying...and to cut losses...especially when you already found yourself divorced once...But from what you say...this man is NOT a good Role model for your boys. Can we agree on that for arguements sake?
And that even if you feel like he might change..are you willing to BANK ON IT?
Then I met my finacee. On paper he seemed great, my support system told me that he had to be perfect. At first he stepped up helped more than their bio-father ever did. Then he started pulling away.
There is always a Honeymoon period in any new relationship...more so for a possible Narcissist.And they do change into who they REALLY ARE once that time has passed and they think they have SECURED you by making you insecure.It is a hook...not love Anaface.
In my mind I know I should leave for my boys and me.
I know how hard that is for you to admit.And i am so sorry that he has put you in this postion.
I have told him (fiancee) that I want a mate who models the behavior that I want for my boys. I want someone who will treat me the way that I want my boys to treat their signifcant other.
And I am sure that you see he is not living up to your expectations.So now the ball is in your court.Do you want your sons to end up like him? Because environment is EVERYTHING.As you well know or you wouldn‘t have left your childrens bio father.
The hardest part and the part I can‘t communicate to my brain from my heart is that I believe that of everyone that I have known he has the power to change his behavior.
Can an abuser change? Hmmm....Depends on how messsed up they are internally.Yours sounds a bit too damaged to do himself any good, let alone YOU, your children, or his future clients.
And while that sometimes feels like OUR FAULT...it isn‘t!
But they would love nothing more than to PIN IT ALL ON US!
Believe it or not..SOME people can NEVER change...Unless he is willing to ENTER THERAPY and be professionally diagonsed and get‘s serious help..he will NOT CHANGE.
No amount of love or forgiveness or need or expectaion can change someone who refuses to change for themself.
I see abusers like addicts.They deny deny deny,apologize to shut us up, project THIER issues onto us, manipulate us with thier our insecurities and don‘t change a DAMN THING....until they hit ROCK BOTTOM..Like when someone leaves them for good...but most often..i think they just move on to another unsuspecting person....then they have to face that they are a mess.Some change after that..some go right back to being addicts. But it is up to HIM to recognize his behavior as unacceptable,and change..and he obviously feels that his Degree is enough to say....I am EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY...
When you know..he is not.
If you feel strrongly about not giving up yet...do yourself a favor..ask him to JOIN you in therapy.Get an outside objective opinion by a professional..Since he IS ONE..he shouldn‘t have ANY Problem going to one...and if he does..THAT says IT ALL!
Wishing you well...And totally understanding....sometimes leaving feels harder than staying...I know..i have been there too....
I think it comes down to what you fear most..the KNOWN...or the UNKNOWN!
Your call..
Ramble On.
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| Topic: What does a narcissist look like??????
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| Subject: What does a narcissist look like?????? - Posted: 5/17/2007 7:18:16 AM
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Stormygirl...
I‘m curious.....Now that you know he can‘t change who he is...what do you think you will do?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_narcissist_ever_be_a_true_friend
I found some personal opinions to this Question...I just wanted you to be aware...he can NOT change...Narcissism IS HIS PERSONALITY.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/lifestyle/219049_narcissist07.html
Narcissists: If you love one, a new book offers help
By KRISTIN DIZON
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
Jerk. Witch. Creep.
You’ve probably used such names to describe a romantic partner gone bad, or maybe a few choice words of the four-letter variety.
But, there’s another name for the ones who are so self-absorbed and self-centered that all of their needs and wants come first: the narcissist.
He’s the boyfriend who begs you to leave your job, family and rent-controlled apartment to move to another state to be with him, only to discover, after moving, that he’s got another girlfriend he failed to tell you about.
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Wendy Wahman/P-I |
She’s the girlfriend who creates a crisis out of every little situation so she can be the perpetual look-at-me center of attention and drama.
It’s the father who chose to play golf instead of help with his young son’s birthday party, despite his wife’s pleas. Then he arrived when the party was almost over, crushing his son’s feelings.
All of these are examples from flesh and blood people in the new book, “Help! I’m in Love With a Narcissist,” by relationship authors Julia Sokol and Steven Carter. (M. Evans and Co., 270 pages, $21.95).
Previously, they wound up on the best-seller list for “Men Who Can’t Love,” in which they coined the now ubiquitous term, “commitmentphobia.” Now, they’re throwing our self-obsessed, me!, me!, me! approach to relationships under the microscope.
We live in narcissistic times. We observe every move of Paris Hilton and P. Diddy, and lavish attention upon arrogant business moguls like Donald Trump.
Reality is, most of us have some degree of narcissism and self-centeredness. But there‘s a big difference between garden-variety narcissistic tendencies and toxic narcissism.
Narcissists are often charming, adventurous people who entertain us with their interesting stories and grandiose sense of self. They are often very attentive and appreciative toward their partners for the first month or two, and are skilled at fanning the chemistry.
But, they also know how to demean, criticize and show no empathy for others. They‘re often controlling and have a needy side that asks frequently: Do you really love me? Will you leave me? Are you like all of the others?
Many have a history of troubled relationships and lots of emotional baggage.
They take, they demand, they expect. In return, they give very little, although many are good at delivering flowery words of love that suck us back in, especially after a fight or ultimatum.
But, how do you know if you‘re living with a narcissist? The bottom line is that if you‘re in a relationship that‘s dominated by the other person‘s wishes and priorities, without the normal give-and-take and compromise, you very well may be shacking up with a narcissist.
Sokol recently spoke with us from her Rhode Island home about living with and loving narcissists.
Who did you write this book for? And why the need for it?
"We‘re writing it for everybody who doesn‘t quite understand why they‘re getting stuck in the same relationship -- one that revolves around the other person. ... I think it‘s very widespread. And we also did this book to help readers understand their own narcissistic issues. That will help you understand the choices you make and why you‘re drawn to a particular type of person. Most of these people who get into these hideous, hideous relationships, one after another, complain that they were bored with other people."
What separates average narcissistic qualities from a true toxic narcissist?
"I guess it‘s how much pain that person is causing and how unable and completely incapable the toxic narcissist is to feel anything for another person. The narcissist is able to weave this terrific web of fantasy and illusion. It‘s fulfilling all your fantasies, all your dreams. You‘ve always wanted to feel unique and special and the narcissist is able to make you feel that and that this is a unique and special relationship."
Why do people fall for narcissists?
"I think society places a value on narcissism and narcissistic values. We put an emphasis on the superficial. We put an emphasis on the people who sound as though they know what they‘re talking about, even when they don‘t. ... Narcissism forgives an awful lot that in an earlier time would have been considered obnoxious. Modesty is no longer a virtue in this country. Narcissists tend to tell you that they‘re wonderful and terrific and adorable. ... They tend to know how to sweep people off their feet. They are incredibly seductive. They know what you like to hear."
A lot of folks seem to believe that with enough love and hope and effort, the narcissist in their life can change. What do you think?
"After years of hearing these stories -- and we‘ve heard thousands of them -- they don‘t ever seem to change."
How does one‘s upbringing tie into loving a narcissist or becoming one?
"Many people have parents who have all-about-me tendencies -- everything comes back to that person. The child is the audience, the support system, a part of this drama. And then they turn around and find partners who pull us in this way. It comes from our own weak sense of self. ... Some are so spoiled by parents that they turned into narcissists."
Why are narcissists so hard to leave?
"Narcissism is also about feelings of sadness and depression. So the classic narcissistic partner has this ‘look-at-me‘ quality, but also has this ‘oh poor me, I really need help.‘ They draw you in with the sadness and the emptiness and you feel that somehow you can fill this void. And you tell yourself, he really loves me -- even though he‘s cheating on me every other night of the week."
What‘s your advice for people to get out of a narcissistic relationship and break the pattern?
"You have to understand what attracts you to this person. You start setting up boundaries that you‘re not going to let people cross. You really start believing in the things that you say are important. You stop focusing on perfection, you stop worrying about being bored. And you stop feeling that you can solve the other person‘s problems. ... The minute you feel you‘re in this kind of relationship or you‘ve had more than one person like this in your life, a little professional help is not going to hurt."
You and Steven Carter coined the term commitmentphobia. Do you think narcissist will become part of the dating lexicon?
"I think it‘s starting to do that already. And it‘s about time, too. I think this is the relationship issue of our times. There‘s nothing to curb people like these. They‘re in a society that supports it."
KNOW A NARCISSIST?
Here are the signs of narcissism. It takes five or more before you can slap the label on someone:
1. An exaggerated or grandiose sense of self-importance that isn‘t supported by reality
2. A preoccupation with fantasies of extraordinary success, wealth, power, beauty and love
3. A belief that he/she is special and unique and can only be understood by other special people
4. An intense need for admiration
5. A sense of entitlement
6. A tendency to exploit others without guilt or remorse
7. An absence of meaningful empathy
8. A tendency to be envious or to assume that he/she is the object of others‘ envy
9. An arrogant attitude
Good luck...Kristin
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| Topic: The Stealth Narcissist
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| Subject: The Stealth Narcissist - Posted: 5/17/2007 11:06:15 AM
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Stealth means Stealth...from the start to the moment you FIGURE it all out..Way past the time you thought you made a GOOD JUDGEMENT choice in them.
It really has NOTHING to do with Choosing better...it has to do with BEING CONNED., and finding out too late..and dealing with the aftermath.
If you are targeted by a Stealth Narcissist...you won‘t even realize it until you are committed to them and they are ABUSING YOU...
Don‘t delude yourself into thinking that you can KNOW the difference between a LIAR and the real thing....
There types are academy award winning, until they TURN ON YOU...
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| Topic: Total f***ng shock!!!
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| Subject: Total f***ng shock!!! - Posted: 5/18/2007 1:11:58 PM
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Thanks Lou Lou...
For trying to help even though you feel like crap!
I deleted my post...I figure..the less people know of my story..the less humilated I will feel.
It takes a long time to get over what these people do to us and others...and i KNOW...the part I played in the FIASCO I ended up involved in had ALOT to do with how HE TREATED ME...
So i am just trying to keep forgiving myself for being so needy and allowing him to take FULL advantage of me...
I know it won‘t happen again.
I am way too aware now.And go out of my way to AVOID men all together.They have never done anything but hurt me.
But it still hurts when I am judged by others...who didn‘t walk in my shoes...it is hard to expalin something that you really can‘t comprehend.
I can recall...even 3 years after not seeing him, the PAIN he caused me with his CALLOUS indiference...and I know i did NOTHING to deserve how he treated me...except care about him AND ME!
Anyways...please take care...and know...everything he has said to you is a PROJECTION...They can NOT handle the truth of themselves....and scapegoat us to save themselves.
Mine actually told me he was anti social...and the BAIN of his own existence...
Worst..he was the BAIN of mine..because i stupidly TRUSTED him.
Live and learn.
Hugs..Kristin
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| Topic: major disaster! help!!!
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| Subject: major disaster! help!!! - Posted: 5/19/2007 11:27:37 AM
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He found out. He found out and has filed a complaint with the police about me. He got me to sign an apology for using his password... I am in transe. Don‘t know how this happened and could I get arrested? My god oh my god...
I HEAR YOU AND WANT TO OFFER MY CONCERNS AND TRY TO HELP YOU LOU LOU!!!
WHY DID YOU SIGN ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!
I imagine he knew because it was TOO SOON that HE FU**ED YOU OVER~! DO NOT FORGET THAT PART,ok?
I am sorry that you are in trouble now.And i can‘t BLAME YOU for seeking a LITTLE REVENGE!
I WISH you had played it like a Narcissist..DENY DENY DENY!!!!!!
You can‘t feel GUILTY enough to admit to it to HIM...can you?
These people are DOGS...and you take them out to shit...but other than THAT...you avoid them at all costs...and continuing to deal with him in ANY WAY will keep you in trouble hon!
I say..REMIND him what you deleted...the TYPE of information he might NOT what others to KNOW ABOUT..
Time to pull the switcheroo...
These guys PLAY DIRTY..WHY CAN‘T WE!
Cuz we are too KIND?
SCREW THAT...LOU LOU! HE BURNED YOU HARD...
He had it coming!
DO NOT ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS LACK OF CONSCIENCE!
Do whatever you need to do to WIGGLE OUT of the consequences of this.
CALL THE POLICE yourself..and inform THEN what he is all about.
Tell them you intentionally WANTED TO non-violently HURT HIM BACK and that you had NO OTHER options...AT THE TIME.
You were UPSET to find out he was BLOWING GUYS while telling YOU he loved you...
Does little dick WANT all the men at the precinct to know his dirty little SECRETS!!!!!!!!
I an so ANGRY FOR YOU!
Maybe someone knows more about this than I do.
I jsut wanted you to know i was HERE...and PULLING FOR YOU!
And i have to say...i think this is sorta what i meant by NOT letting them bring you down to thier level...
They are MUCH Better at it than we are.
I am STILL APPLUDING your EFFORTS though!
Hang tough..and learn a lesson here!
Love and PEACE...Kristin
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| Topic: How to deal with IMPOSSIBLE people
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| Subject: How to deal with IMPOSSIBLE people - Posted: 5/21/2007 4:00:45 AM
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http://www.wikihow.com/Deal-With-Impossible-People
We all know impossible people. They tend to share three main characteristics: They cannot be reasoned with, they believe they can do no wrong, and they are convinced that everything is someone else‘s fault. If you haven‘t had some first-hand experience in dealing with such people, even a brief conversation can raise your blood pressure through the roof. These people may also be known to some as narcissists. Here are some insights and steps for dealing with these highly difficult people.
We woman can save ourselves and eachother from SO MUCH Useless and wasted energy...
The BEST thing to say to a Narcissist is GOODBYE...
Ramble On
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| Topic: The Stealth Narcissist
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| Subject: The Stealth Narcissist - Posted: 5/21/2007 8:12:22 AM
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Congratulations on your Awakening...Renee...
Isn‘t it Scary how time slips away from us when we
are lead so far from our Authentic Selves by the confusion and self doubt
we learn to accept in a one sided relationship with a Narcissist.I wish you nothing but FREEDOM from HIS INSANITY.
And i am impressed that you are able to gather some steam before you abandon him...did you realize..that he subconsciously WANTS you to do that? So he can prove to himself...ALL women SUCK!
Must be nice to be able to so easily PROJECT all of their own Character Flaws onto to others who JUST Tried TO LOVE THEM!
To blame shift ALL problems THEY cause without remorse or conscience to side step any and all responsibility for thier own issues.
To "forget" the major problems they created.
To not CARE about anyone or anything with any emotional obligation to them, let alone any seriousness or LOVE!!!
The list goes on and on...and the SAD PART is this....
The WAY they treat people pushes them away and DOES prove just what they already know thanks to thier abusive childhoods..PEOPLE LEAVE THEM....
I think they actually EXPECT people to tolerate everything they dish out...SURPRISE SURPRISE!
We don‘t, once we WAKE UP and SMELL THE COFFEE...
WE FREAKIN‘ RUN!!!!!!
Ahh...Mountain Roast in the morning...Without the N to RUIN US.
GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!!!!
Your NEW LIFE is about to begin!
And YOU DESERVE IT!
Ramble On
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| Topic: What is Love?
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| Subject: What is Love? - Posted: 5/21/2007 9:02:48 AM
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Just wondering...Has anyone here EVER had THIS type of Reciprocal, Healthy, Love Relationship?
Seems like an impossibility from where i came from.
But i am trying....
What does LOVE mean to you?
Ramble On
The Characteristics of Healthy Love
People in healthy relationships have the following characteristics.
1. They allow for individuality.
2. They experience both oneness with and separateness from another.
3. They bring out the best qualities in self and another.
4. They accept endings.
5. They experience openness to change and exploration.
6. They invite growth in the other person.
7. They experience true intimacy.
8. They feel the freedom to ask honestly for what is wanted.
9. They experience giving and receiving in the same way.
10. They do not attempt to change or control the other.
11. They encourage self-sufficiency of partners.
12. They accept limitations of self and other.
13. They do not seek unconditional love.
14. They accept and respect commitment.
15. They have a high self-esteem.
16. They trust the memory of the beloved; they enjoy solitude.
17. They express feelings spontaneously.
18. They welcome closeness; risk vulnerability.
19. They care with detachment.
20. They affirm equality and personal power of self and other.
by Dr. Brenda Schaeffer, licensed psychologist, certified addiction specialist and author of "Love’s Way: The Union of Body, Ego, Soul and Spirit" and "Is It Love Or Is It Addiction?"
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| Topic: major disaster! help!!!
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| Subject: major disaster! help!!! - Posted: 5/21/2007 12:49:44 PM
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Hey Lou Lou...
I just wanted to check on you...and see if you have found any humor in this yet?
I am sitting here thinking about this LOW LIFE and laughing at his sorry ass.!Yeah...i should be making dinner...but...
I wanted to say...I find it such poetic JUSTICE What you dared to do...And that these idiots CAN‘T HANDLE an OUNCE of WHAT THEY DISH OUT!
I posted the "How to deal with DIFICULT people" for you..
But in reality...
NO CONTACT works WONDERS!
It takes ALL OF THIER POWER AWAY...
It gives you a sense of peace nothing else ever can.
I hope you get in and out of london peacefully...
And also...thanks for the details of your life...even though right now they are not positive ones..It is a trip to know someone over the ocean...and be able to imagine you in a place called Picadilly Square...knowing i will never go there...
Wishing you WELL!
And SO glad others are trying to help you...i HATED to see you alone...
And WISH i couldn‘t see the Views...
Hugs..Kristin
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| Topic: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive?
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| Subject: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive? - Posted: 5/22/2007 3:55:33 AM
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Just checking on you Anaface...
I hope you are ok...
ramble on
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| Topic: Why do women stay in Abusive relationships?
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| Subject: Why do women stay in Abusive relationships? - Posted: 5/22/2007 11:25:41 AM
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WHY DO WOMEN STAY IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS?
Power and Control Wheel
Why Women Stay in Abusive Relationships?
The abuser exerts Power and Control over the victim combined with the Cycle of Violence to keep women in abusive relationships.
Barriers that Prevent Her from Leaving
The victim of domestic violence also faces many of the following barriers that prevent her from leaving her abuser.
Fear
- Fear of physical harm
- Fear of threats
- Fear of harassment
- Fear of making abuser angrier
- Fear of living alone or being alone
- Fear of losing children
- Fear of losing house, car
- Fear others will blame you
- Fear of the unknown
- Fear of financial problems without him
- Fear a change in standard of living
- Fear of deportation
- Fear no one believes you
- Fear of the court system
Love
- Still loves the abuser
- Commitment to the relationship
- Sex, affection, and kindness during non violence times
- Companionship
- History together
- Hope it‘s going to improve
- Hope he‘ll change
Emotional
- Low self-esteem
- Being emotionally exhausted
- Loneliness
- Guilt
- Self-blame for the abuse
- Feeling like a failure
- Feeling defective
- Feeling unwanted by others
Change
- Not wanting a divorce
- Not wanting to be a single parent
- Not wanting to look for someone else
- Not wanting to leave pets
- Not wanting to grieve
- Not wanting to start over
- Not wanting to change life style
- Not wanting to lose his family
- Not wanting to be excluded from social functions
Abuser
- Uses mind games
- Uses crying
- Uses threats of suicide
- Uses his power and his family‘s power
- Uses his Mr. Nice Guy image
- Uses promises
- Uses apologies
Children
- Pressure from children who want their dad
- Believes it is best for children
- Custody issues
- Need childcare
Support
- Nowhere to go
- Unaware help is available
- No support system
- Isolated from support
Needs
- Need insurance
- Need financial support
- Have health/disability issues
More
- Not identifying abuse
- Normalize abusive behaviors
- Abusive cycle is familiar
- Others accept violence as okay
- Pressure from others
- Preserve abusers reputation
- Religious beliefs
- Social status
- Security
- Having hopes and dreams
- Same sex partners
- Knowing its okay to leave
For Your Safety
Erase your internet "Footprints" - learn about what safety steps you can take to prevent your abuser from finding out where you visit online.
Escape Site takes you to google.com for a quick exit from this site.
24 Hour Crisis Line McHenry County 1-800-892-8900
National Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE
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| Topic: Trama Bonds
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| Subject: Trama Bonds - Posted: 5/22/2007 11:38:14 AM
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http://www.angriesout.com/family1.htm
Trauma Bonds
Trauma bonds, according to Patrick Carnes, psychologist and authority in sexual addiction, are those ties that keep people attracted to people that hurt them. Trauma bonds cause people to obsess about the other ‘s problem and do not look at how unhealthy their own life is.
Carnes says you may be caught in a betrayal bond if:
- You stay in dangerous relationships, attract friends or a partner who use you or hurt you.
- You have to keep secrets or cover up your partner‘s anger, abuse or addictions
- You feel that you have to make your partner understand how you are and he or she does not care about your feelings.
- If people who are truly your friends are worried about your situation but you are not, you are in denial.
- Your partner expects you to isolate from others, meet every demand, read his or her mind and always give him or her what is expected.
- The two of you have destructive fights where behavior deteriorates to hurting each other with words or actions instead of trying to solve the problem.
- You are supporting someone who is financially irresponsible.
- You have given up your sense of self to meet the needs of someone who is selfish and uses you.
- You long for someone from a past relationship that was unhealthy for you.
If It Hurts All the Time, It Ain‘t Love
Codependency is a form of trauma bonding. You give your self away for the relationship and do not object to the partner‘s acting out of anger inappropriately or addictive behaviors. The problem of the other person‘s harmful anger then becomes your problem. You live your life putting up with his bad behavior
Your worry, your pity, your concern for this person keeps you from looking at your own behavior and choices. How you react to the angry person‘s behavior causes your pain. You allow his misbehavior because you do not know what to do except "hurt" for him. And of course you justify it because, he is a "good person" the rest of the time. Or because you "luv" him.
As Tina Turner asks, "What does love got to do with it?" If you are in pain over your relationship a lot of the time, it ain‘t love! Not if you feel sorry for him. Not if you feel achy, overwhelmed and agitated when you think of him. These heady feelings are just emotional arousal. They are just a habit, fear, addiction, dependency or codependency or a combination of all of these! But they are not love.
Questions to Determine the Quality of Your Relationship
Recently the psychological research is examining couples to better understand how people function. Robert Sternberg who is a psychologist and researcher on the concept of love has developed a list of questions to help determine the quality of a present or past relationship. Here are some ideas from his research plus others in the field.
Ask yourself these questions to determine the qualities of your thoughts about the relationship. Answer the questions honestly from both your point and your partner‘s point of view. Be realistic as you describe how you think your partner feels. This assignment can be an eye opener!
Write a few sentences on each question. Write out the answers and ask your partner (if he is willing) to do the same. If he refuses, write the answer from his point of view and try to capture his way of thinking. Sharing these questions and answers can be an avenue of opening up lines of communication.
- How is the stress and anger in the relationship affecting your physical and emotional health?
- How does the anger affect the children or other family members?
- How much time do you spend recovering from your partner‘s anger? What are the abusive behaviors that you and your partner engage in? Does the relationship give you what you need in terms of emotional support? Do you get sufficient rewards from your partner? What is the cost/benefit ratio of your relationship?
- Is your partner unable or unwilling to give you the support and love that you deserve? If so, is it because he does not have the resources to give or that you have not been able to ask for what you want?
- Are you being reinforced once in a while? Do short periods of calm and contrite behavior on your partner‘s part carry more weight in keeping you in the relationship?
- Is the pattern of giving and receiving within the relationship equitable for both partners? If not, what can you realistically do to change this?
- Do you and your partner have the same values? Are there serious value conflicts that are unresolvable?
- Do you justify staying in the relationship because of your past investment in it and amount of time that you have given to it? Do you stay out of habit or guilt rather than because you want to?
- Is your commitment to staying based on how things used to be or how things are now? Is it based on how things are or how you wish they would be? How long have you been hoping things will get better?
- Do you and your partner have the same type of friends? Do the differing values of each other‘s friends pull and tug at the relationship?
- Have the two of you been through bad times before and resolved your problems? Or were the problems just swept under the rug to continue?
- When you think of the future together, is it more trials and tribulations or can you see yourselves pulling through this bad period?
- Is there sufficient trust between you so that the relationship can survive? Is the anger due to past betrayal between you so strong that you cannot forgive each other?
- Do you still respect each other? Do you still like each other? Liking your partner is an important part of love.
- Is the relationship alive? Does it have positive energy or is it dead? Does helping save the relationship exist in your mind only?
- Are there obsessive qualities to your loving your partner? If those obsessive thoughts would disappear, would the caring still be there for you? Does obsession substitute for love?
- Do you love the other person as she is or are you still trying to change him? How many times a day do you think about changing him? How much of your attachment is unresolved codependency?
- Are you looking to the other person to give you salvation in the relationship? Are you expecting him to give you what you cannot give yourself? Does the relationship represent your feeling good about yourself?
- How do you cope with the stresses of the relationship? What patterns of excusing, avoiding, blaming, distracting, ignoring or problem solving do you and your partner have?
- What amount of intimacy does each of you need? What is your style of loving? Does it mesh with your partner‘s?
- How much do you care about your partner‘s needs and what happens to him? How much does he care about your needs? Is the caring equitable?
- What addictive behaviors do you and your partner engage in? How do you act differently under the control of alcohol or drugs?
- How much are each of you committed to the growth and maturity of the other person? Does the attachment to your partner stifle your own growth? Do you foster dependence or do you encourage independence and individuality for each other?
- Are you and your partner capable of the personal changes it will take to make the relationship successful?
- Do you and your partner have a plan to carry out the necessary changes? Are you and your partner committed to do the hard work to save the relationship?
- Are you willing to get some outside help and stop denying that the relationship will get better on its own?
- How do you feel writing about these issues? Which question caused you the greatest insight, pain or anger?
- And one more question. Why are you reading this article?
If you find yourself stumbling on these questions but choose to stay in the relationship, it back to business as usual. Unless YOU or your partner drastically changes, the anger level of your partner will probably not change.
Deciding to Leave a Chronically Unhealthy Relationship
How do you know when to leave a situation that is continually unhappy for you? For some, there is a sudden decision after a specific incident that has been demoralizing. Others need many small decisions points going back and forth for some time before they make up their mind that things are unbearable. As alcoholics need to reach a bottom before deciding to change their drinking habits, people with relationship addiction need to hit bottom emotionally. Some people need to make the decision to leave time and time again after each attempt to resolve the problems in the relationships fails. Sometimes it takes many years to reach this decision.
Caring people typically stay too long in unhappy relationships due to their high levels of guilt. Some people have an excess of guilt and shame that keeps them from moving on. Guilt rules their life. They stay and take abuse to keep themselves from feeling bad. They can also have an erroneous belief that they cannot hurt the other person‘s feelings. This skewed way of thinking blocks their common sense-it can be so strong that they allow damage to be done to children and themselves because they don‘t want to hurt someone else. When someone you love is actively hurting others, let them know. It won‘t hurt them to have their feelings hurt and they may actually learn to become a better person.
If you are caught in an unhealthy relationship due to your high levels of guilt read Emotional Blackmail: When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation and Guilt by Susan Forward, How Good Do We Have to Be? and New Understandings of Guilt and Forgiveness by Harold Kushman.
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| Topic: Why do women stay in Abusive relationships?
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| Subject: Why do women stay in Abusive relationships? - Posted: 5/22/2007 2:49:47 PM
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You are welcome.
I have SUCH empathy and sympathy for women who are abused and feel STUCK.I have been there..."Just" verbal abuse in my marriage, and some spitting in my face...Yummy....Strange how i never thought that was as bad as someone who was being physically abused.But I think my husband somehow "Knew Better" than to hit me...he is a 3rd degree black belt in Karate...and had one hell of a threatening way about him.He scared me all the time...just for the POWER of it.
And there I was...paying ALL the bills...with more than plenty of money of my own...and i STILL stayed.
I would sit in silence as he berated me and belittled me...for TOO LONG...i assume i was trama bonded to him...sorta my usual M/O in ALL of my relationships.
Thanks to my sexually abused past i think.
This outta make SOMEONE smile though...i had TOLERATED his "love" (ABUSE) for 14 years...i had run into a Sociopath/Narcissist...still haven‘t figured THAT out yet...but needless to say...i was TAKEN OVER by a man who was a married professional who was in the process of grooming me to exploit me. Nice!
So my loyalties were waining from my marriage in a VERY easy and justifiable way...
One day...my husband, knowing i was falling out of love with him...who could BLAME ME...got pissed at me...well...i was under the illusion that this other guy wanted to actually be with me, so i had gotten cocky....
FINALLY~!
I STOOD UP FOR MYSELF...MY LIFE BE DAMNED..THAT WAS NO LIFE!I‘d rather have BEEN dead than put up with THAT shit for another second!
Someone told me i had the RIGHT to be happy...Classic manipulation to lure me away for his own benefit...i TRUSTED him with my life...so I listened to him..BIG FREAKIN MISTAKE!
But that is ANOTHER FUCKED UP STORY!
My husband decided it was within his RIGHT to call me a "FAT FUCKING CUNT" whenever he felt like putting me in my place..I was SICK OF IT~
The LAST time he said that..AND spit in my face...i stood up and said..
"NO, FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!"
He was like ..."oh YEAH~!"
I said YEAH!
Well...after he spit at me...he started running away..PUSSY!
I ran after him and he pulled a chair down in front of me to get away..PUSSY!
When i recovered...i was like a LUNATIC!
I pushed him as HARD as i could into a Stair well...and he broke 3 ribs on a corner...fell to the ground in AGONY...and i realized..
I did NOT love him anymore.
I had put up with so much shit for so long...i had repressed myself to the degree that i SNAPPED...and i know just how that happens to women!
Within a few months..i had KICKED HIS ASS OUT OF MY HOUSE..yes..I owned it....myself!
I kept our kids.
And stopped TOLERATING HIS ABUSE~!
Beleive it or not...after the ORDEAL i went through thanks to a Narcissistic Professional...I was basically FORCED back into my marriage.
It was pure insanity.
Today though..i can say...i have ALOT more POWER than i ever had.I had it all along..i just had been PUSHED down face first into the mudd of HIS issues for so long...i lost myself.
My husband FINALLY took my seriously, after not one but 2, 6 month separations...2 years apart.
And i have to add...The only reason i continue to stay with him is because..
HE DOESNT ABUSE ME anymore. AT ALL.
HE DARE NOT!I will leave him in a HEART BEAT and he knows it and luckily...is financially dependant on me..HEHEHEHEHE!
I could never have imagined that TAKING back my power would have the kind of effect on him that it has.
We still do not have alot of trust or intimacy...but after what WE have survived together...who would.
All i know is this...i DID escape..into the arms of a Sociopath.
And THAT made my husband look TAME by comparision.
The worst part is this...i have NEVER known a loyal, trustworthy, kind,caring loving HONEST man in m LIFE.
Do they FREAKIN‘ EXIST!????????????????
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| Topic: Can an abuser change?
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| Subject: Can an abuser change? - Posted: 5/22/2007 3:32:26 PM
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Can a Victim Change?
I advocate FAIR RESPONSIBILITY for BOTH parties within an ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP...sorry if that doesn‘t bode well here.
I used to think it was just GREAT that i could Blame my husband for all...but guess what...it wasn‘t all him...
I wanted to say something about these men.And about thier "victims".
Imagine WHY they are like this to women.What happened to them may not seem important while you are in a relationship with an abuser...But there are REASONS...not excuses...Psychological Reasons...why.
No different than why WE "end up" with them...and stay for sometimes YEARS too long...
I know why my husband was abusive.And i also know why i stayed.
You should have seen his FATHER! OMG!
And my mother...well...alcoholic/drug addicted narcissist and bascially messed up all of her childrens heads...so....It would go to show..i would end up with a Controlling alcoholic,verbally abusive asshole!
What i question is What MADE them HATE so deeply and completely ?
While he has not said or done ALL of the things on the "list of Change",i can say...it is possible...sometimes...to regain OUR POWER within an abusive relationship....and still understand and forgive them IF they change...
If the abuser is willing to let down thier DEFENSES long enough to HEAR our pleas...sometimes that is possible.
I had to SCREAM pretty loud from a far away emotional distance...but mine got the point.
And he has not only changed..but redeemed himself in my eyes.
I NEVER thought I‘d see the day.
Not ALL abusers are LOST CAUSES.Any more than all victims are meant to ALWAYS be victims..
WE all have to CHANGE for ourselves.
I hate to remind women..that they are not totally innocent for thier part of the Dance...NOT VICTIM BLAMING HERE...i am saying...
We all as Adults must take personal responsibility for what happens to us and what we do to others...We may be Victims...but we have to accept WHY WE STAYED in abusive relationships as a PART of the Problem.
If we solely BLAME THEM...we are doomed to repeat until WE work out OUR own issues rooted in our pasts...
There would be no abuse if we were not there.So finding out WHY we stayed is CRUCIAL to not finding ourselves in yet the same damn type of relationship....
WE too are conditioned to accept abuse, as they are to dish it out.
Why Women stay....
http://www.ywcaofmissoula.org/pathways_why.htm
All I‘m saying is this...i am NOT superior to my abusers.
And i can forgive them from the reality that they were no less harmed than they harmed me, than i was willing to accept.
Ramble On
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| Topic: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive?
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| Subject: Fiancee is a Clinical Psychologist Abusive? - Posted: 5/23/2007 3:40:02 AM
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I don‘t think Anaface can hear us yet...
And i believe she is caught up in a Betrayal Bond that goes well beyond our warnings and concerns.
Sometimes...women HAVE to learn the hard way I guess.
I know i did.
It seems to me, until SHE wants to change her situation, we can‘t help.
I would bet ANY money...he is in the positive part of his intermittant reinforcement stage...and she thinks he is "changing".
Too bad it NEVER stays like that.
I wish her safety.And COURAGE.
Ramble On
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| Topic: Can an abuser change?
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| Subject: Can an abuser change? - Posted: 5/23/2007 3:55:08 AM
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I wanted to clarify.
There is a DIRECT Correlation between being abused as a child and being abused as an adult.
And until those repetitive patterns are addressed...we DO continue to seek out self destuctive "Love" relationships.
If we aren‘t willing to settle for abusers in our lives...we won‘t BE abused.
I am reading a GREAT book called ,Come Back, by Claire and Mia Fontaine.It is all about childhood sexual abuse(Namely incest) adversly effecting children into adulthood IF nothing is done about it.
By 15, the daughter has become so self destructive, she is sent to a Rehab in the Czech republic to be re-programmed.
The one thing they advocate is the knowledge that every CHOICE we make is our personal responsibility.
I have to run now..but i intend on adding a few exerps later to make the point i made about CAN VICTIMS CHANGE...make more sense.
Bottom line.
The opposite of LEARNED helplessness...is EMPOWERMENT...and acceptance and responsibility of choices, whether they enhance our lives or destroy them, is in our own hands...no matter HOW much someone CHOOSES to abuse us..we have the CHOICE TO LEAVE.
We do everything we do for a reason...nothing is a COINCIDENCE~!
Ramble On
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| Topic: Women as Victims of Verbal Abuse
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| Subject: Women as Victims of Verbal Abuse - Posted: 5/23/2007 5:33:45 AM
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Women as Victims of Verbal Abuse
© 2000 Michele Toomey, PhD
michele@mtoomey.com
http://www.mtoomey.com/womenasvictims.html
My husband NEVER beat me...with anything but words...and sometimes...i wished i had PROOF of the pain he was causing me.Even I minimized the damage because i thought...at least he isn‘t hitting me.But i felt SMALL and scarred by his belittling rants and the humilation kept me enslaved. He felt EMPOWERED.I felt WORTHLESS.
It was accepted as the "norm" in his family as his father did the same to his mother....and he and his siblings felt powerless.To regain his loss of power...he abused me.
Breaking the cycle
was hard.
I seek SUBSTANCE here!
Not flippant commentary.
It feels very invalidating sometimes to read some of these posts.
I take my HEALING seriously.
Ramble On
As members of the "weaker" sex, women have suffered the violence of physical abuse from the "stronger" sex. They have even suffered it at the hands of stronger women. Although there is not nearly enough of an outcry over this violence against women, at least there is a shared sense that it is wrong. Not so with verbal abuse. It leaves no visible wounds or scars, and can be hidden or denied with hardly a second thought. And, unfortunately, verbal attacks are not predominantly done by men. Since they require no physical prowess (although it helps, since it increases the fear and intimidation), verbal abuse can be as violent and as destructive when done by women as when done by men. And there is no great public outcry against it, and certainly no laws making it illegal to verbally slice another, or especially a woman, to pieces and leave her emotionally bleeding.
Fathers and husbands can roar at daughters and wives, berating, belittling and pounding them into submission without being confronted or jailed. There is also a sad legacy of mothers verbally bullying and deriding daughters that goes virtually unaddressed. It is long overdue that we force ourselves to look at the suffering and devastation that verbal abuse exacts, and draw the line on tolerating it. The fear and pain are not as hidden as we would pretend. It can be seen and felt in the eyes and in the faces of the emotionally abused, without a word being uttered. Imagine what we could know if we actually talked about it.
It is the climate of pretense, denial and hiddenness that fosters the self-abuse that women get caught in when they have been victims of others‘ verbal abuse. My focus will be on this dangerous side effect, the abused woman‘s abuse of herself. This is a very deliberate choice on my part, because psychological oppression, unlike physical oppression, only works if we participate in it, and psychological liberation occurs only when we liberate ourselves. We are not in charge of anyone else‘s liberation, but we are definitely in charge of our own. Sadly, if we are abused in childhood we tend to learn abuse, and imitate the hostility directed at us. We may or may not abuse others, but almost surely we will have learned to abuse ourselves.
We must, therefore, look at the way victims not only become victimized, but victimizers, first of themselves and then, sometimes, of others. As women, we are members of the traditionally viewed "inferior" and "weaker" sex. Verbal abuse directed at girls and women has a greater chance of hurting our self-image and damaging our self-esteem, because we are already coming from a lesser position and a smaller "box". Male approval and male protection is subliminally, or even blatantly, communicated to us as a necessity for a safe and happy life. Even if we know better, we don‘t tend to want to fail that test. So, abusive men are very dangerous to women. On the other hand, if other women attack, deride or ridicule us, we are left to wonder what is so wrong with us that even women abuse us. We again question our own worth and worthiness. There is no easy escape route for women, out of the low self-esteem even self-hatred pit, when abuse is present.
Women, therefore, are very vulnerable to verbal abuse, and pay a devastatingly high price for it. The inner voice of an emotionally abused woman is not only a voice of pain, suffering and anger, it is also the voice of an alienated woman who blames herself for how she‘s treated. For every harangue from others, there‘s most often a matching harangue from herself. Self-loathing becomes the source of her own self-abuse. Violators can die or be divorced or moved away from, and abused women are often still not free. The abuser has become herself.
This is not a new revelation, yet, still we tolerate verbal abuse. Why? Why do we as a society continue to deny the ravaging effects on anyone, but especially for our focus here, on women, of verbal innuendoes, attacks, ridicule and derision? Because we are afraid of exposure and we feel safer with hiddenness. We know so much more about psychological torment than we ever reveal. Coldness and silence, withdrawal and ignoring are not foreign tools of torture either. We know their power to devastate and create a feeling of powerlessness and panic just as we know the power of openly hostile acts.
Workplaces as well as homes can be emotionally abusive, only the style may change. At work, we excuse our tolerance for abuse by saying we fear we‘ll lose our job if we confront the abuser. At home, we excuse our tolerance because it‘s none of our business, if we aren‘t the one being abused, and if we are the target of the abuse, we deny our own power to free ourselves. We have the "someday my prince will come" complex, that looks to another to rescue us or rescue others, but we do not look to ourselves. And herein lies the rub.
The only way for a victim of verbal abuse to be freed is to free herself. Both the victimizing "other" and the victimizing "self" must be confronted. Both must be stopped. If all else fails, separating from the abusive other will stop that abuse. Since we cannot separate from ourselves, we are left to convert the hostile energy directed at and against us, to strong energy working for us. This is a complex process that takes commitment, courage and "know how".
The commitment must be to ourselves and our psychological liberation. The courage must be to face directly the forces within us that believed what was said to us and about us, and confront their hostility and bullying tactics, demanding that they stop. The "know how" is the psychology and the tools needed to convert the hostile energy into excited energy for a life fueled by desire not fear or anger. This is not easy, because victims become believers and imitators of the hostility to such an extent that self-doubt and self-blame, even self-hatred, become second nature. To free themselves, victims must draw upon all three elements: commitment, courage and "know how", with a depth of conviction and determination known only to the violated. Without it, there will be continued whining, complaining, crying, describing, repeating, but never moving and liberation.
Therapy would be my strongest recommendation for the committed, courageous women who want to learn how to free themselves. It would also be a good thing to join a group where discussions and sharing and caring are directed toward freeing yourself. Do not join a group where describing your plight and staying in it brings sympathy without movement. Liberation psychology is designed to teach us the principles of the inner world and how to live with integrity in this world. Reading, studying and discussing what I have written would be a most helpful tool. It is hard work to free ourselves from the emotional attachment to psychological abuse, but it is the greatest gift you could ever give yourself. May you have the necessary commitment and courage needed to do the work required to psychologically liberate yourself.
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| Topic: lovefraud.com
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| Subject: lovefraud.com - Posted: 5/23/2007 6:01:28 AM
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http://www.lovefraud.com/
Beware the sociopath
No heart, no conscience, no remorse
I married a con man—a man who I now consider to be a sociopath. I didn‘t know anything about sociopaths when I said, "I do." Well, I learned about sociopaths (also called psychopaths) the hard way.
I thought I was marrying a successful businessman, James Montgomery. It turned out I was his business. He took all my money and left me seriously in debt.
Think it couldn‘t happen to you? Think again.
I found out, far too late, that my husband had a history of defrauding women. I also found out he‘s not alone.
Experts estimate that approximately 1% of the population are born sociopaths. That means there may be nearly 3 million sociopaths in the United States , and more than 63 million sociopaths worldwide. What‘s worse, sociopaths cannot be rehabilitated. Once a sociopath, always a sociopath.
Sociopaths have no heart, no conscience and no remorse. They don‘t worry about paying bills. They think nothing of lying, cheating and stealing. In extreme cases, sociopaths can be serial rapists and serial killers.
Think you can spot a sociopath? Think again. Sociopaths often blend easily into society. They‘re entertaining and fun at parties. They appear to be intelligent, charming, well-adjusted and likable. The key word is "appear." Because for sociopaths it‘s all an illusion, designed to convince you to give them what they want.
Sociopaths are masters of manipulation. So before you give away your love, your money or your life, read this website.
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| Topic: How to deal with IMPOSSIBLE people
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| Subject: How to deal with IMPOSSIBLE people - Posted: 5/23/2007 6:21:15 AM
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Well...since the General Board seems to be much about nothing.
I had hoped that this forum might be a bit more serious for those of us trying to GROW.
I know you ladies have been around WomanSavers for a long time...I just wonder if all of your posts have been this deep.
You must be well beyond healed...
Is there any way...we can have an adult conversation about something having to do with LIBERATION and EMPOWERMENT from abusers here?
Or am I know going to be a ‘target‘ for mentioning this as innapropriate...
Not sure what ‘black bananas‘ have to do with.But i find it a bit rude to post insignificant, inside jokes in this thread.Especially considering the TOPIC!
Maybe you could be "difficult" someplace else?.gif)
....Ramble on.....
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| Topic: Domestic Violence Hotlines & Resources
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| Subject: Domestic Violence Hotlines & Resources - Posted: 5/23/2007 6:38:14 AM
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Anti*
I just wanted to say...THANK YOU for posting and for taking this Forum seriously.
I am starting to feel a bit foolish for trying. Let alone for taking this place seriously.I think I should take a break...i seem to be bombarding, and not being responded to the way i had hoped.
But, i wanted to say...I need you here.And appreciate your efforts! They are not in Vain.
Ramble On
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| Topic: How to deal with IMPOSSIBLE people
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| Subject: How to deal with IMPOSSIBLE people - Posted: 5/23/2007 6:53:14 AM
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SHALLY!
WOW! I must say...i am SHOCKED...Of COURSE i accept your apology!
I was gearing up for a defensive response from you..I was actually afraid to press submit post.Sometimes...i doubt i have a RIGHT to my own Boundaries...and am always afraid of stating them for FEAR of people disliking me.
Thank you SOOO much for NOT being defensive.I am sooo used to that kind of reaction when i stand up for myself!
I meant no harm, of course...i just didn‘t understand the responses.
I will add...i take things VERY seriously.To my own demise.
And i will try to relax...and laugh alittle...here and there...I could really use some cheering up....gif)
And i think your response just did that for me!
By the way...I am FAR from perfect...
Ramble On
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| Topic: How to deal with IMPOSSIBLE people
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| Subject: How to deal with IMPOSSIBLE people - Posted: 5/23/2007 11:33:29 AM
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Shally...
"I just haven‘t laughed in a really long time and it just feels good. "
Now..I‘m sorry...i can totally relate!
But, I understand it is inapropiate at times, and again I apoligize for that.
No problem...really! I am over it...
About the bananas, when I first started posting I saw the bananas emoticons and they just made me giggle, haven‘t giggled in a long time. So, I have been teasing people with them.
I must admit...i didn‘t understand the Banana thing..now that I see them...I can laugh with you...they are cute!
I would never intentionally hurt anyone please believe that.
I believe that...I have just had to deaL with ONE TOO MANY people who HAVE intentionally hurt me in life...I take issue with issues that have nothing to do with you...
So I am sorry too.
It is SO HARD to relax.So I can just as easily apologize for being so easily TRIGGERED!
I went from having ZERO BOUNDARIES...to WALLS the size of Giant Redwoods.
Just know...it‘s me and not so much you....
Now...we can say...we worked it all out and there are NO HARD feelings...
It‘s all good!
Ramble On
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| Topic: Domestic Violence Hotlines & Resources
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| Subject: Domestic Violence Hotlines & Resources - Posted: 5/24/2007 3:47:32 AM
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Thank you for your appreciation Ramble On.
You are welcome!
Don‘t go, continue posting articles and information. Keep bumping them up so people that need help who probably won‘t ever post, can come in and see them.
I really wish i could pull people out of thier shells...Having a VOICE is what has given me the sense of power i never had....i value it so much!
These hotlines and resources are what this site is about. It‘s hard to take this place seriously when members spend more time trying to be alpha bitch of the site and posting myspace surveys and such instead of helping people and keeping the theme of the site true.
I had to laugh at your wording here!
I can‘t tell you HOW many sites i have had to leave or been banned from that had that same problem!
WOW~!
You‘d think women would realize..we have ENOUGH going against us with all the Mysogynists of the world. trying to keep us down...To elevate themselves..NOT to have to fight over pointless power struggles amongst ourselves!
Not to mention...the problem that MEN create with thier insipid Triangulation between us...as they walk away SCOTT FREE!
I have to say...MEN HAVE IT WIRED...they create the problems and leave women to deal with the consequences. Like THEY are worthy of Fighting over and for..PUUU.LEEASE!
I must say though...Shally did apologize to me ....That shouldn‘t have surprised me...but it did.
I just hope i can help...without getting hurt myself...
Ramble ON.
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| Topic: What does a narcissist look like??????
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| Subject: What does a narcissist look like?????? - Posted: 5/26/2007 2:41:40 AM
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http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/general.msnw
Lou Lou...i am far from an expert...But...I started out here. in the NPD forums..there is alot of info to help you understand...NPD...
There are varying degrees of psychopathology...and no..we can‘t DX them..but if it looks like a duck...and acts like one..well...you know the saying...
********Beware of Sam V and FEM FREE *************in the NPD forums..they do NOT tolerate any Questioning of thier Authority. And since i have been banned from there multiple times for just that...I know.
But there is ALOT of info and people there who can help you understand.
Be safe.
Kristin
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| Topic: What does a narcissist look like??????
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| Subject: What does a narcissist look like?????? - Posted: 5/29/2007 3:42:45 AM
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http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/general.msnw
Lou Lou....I wanted to make SURE you realized that there are THOUSANDS of women dealing with the fall out of a "relationship" with a Narcissist...and that there are many, many Forums where they gather and talk about all of the issues....Also...since you mentioned that he is obviously a SEX ADDICT, you can safely assume he is a Somatic Narcissist...Sex to them is WITHOUT emotion...it is all about Narcissistic SUPPY...
As for healing...from a life time of abuses...by many different people in your life...that is not easily determined by a general rule of thumb...
For me...imposing NO CONTACT was a HUGE start...but here are some stages that everyone who has been abused by a N can expect to go through...add in all of those Abandonment stages I told you about and top it off with regaining our self esteem, setting Healthy Boundaries, DECIDING to STOP allowing Pitiful Low lifes into our lives and then DEFENDING and protecting them from themselves...are all how I did it...
Oh...and getting therapy for OUR own issues that lead us into these self destructive relationshisp and keep us there well beyond a rational point...
Hope you are doing well...You seem to "get it"...and that is a BIG step..
Hugs..Ramble On
The Seven Stages of Recovery
by Still Smilin
1) The Roadkill Stage
This is when you finally hit bottom due to the experience with a Narcissist.
2) The Realization Stage
This is when the answers to the questions that have been plaguing you begin to get answered and you now know what it is you have been dealing with all this time. You begin to research everything you can find on Narcissism. You usually feel better that you know, but the sense of betrayal begins to hit you like a Mack truck. Unfortunately, you start to feel angry at yourself for letting it go on for so long.
3) The Anger Stage
This is when the full impact of what you went through hits home and all hell breaks loose! Anger is uncomfortable, but I think it is a necessary step towards healing. At first, it is like an erupting volcano, then it usually evolves in focusing on how to get through. If you don‘t let as much of the anger out at this stage, you will stay stuck for a longer period of time. (I did this).
4) Taking Affirmative Action Stage
This is when you begin to learn to effectively focus your new-found knowledge into making life decisions. This is also the period where you begin to learn and practice techniques on how to protect yourself from the Narcissist. This is the stage where some decide on divorce, relocating, changing jobs, and lifestyle changes. This is also a time of great upheaval, because the Narcissist usually knows that the "gig is up" The Narcissist will fight you tooth and nail to win. This is a crucial stage in healing, because it is at this stage that the Narcissist will also try to "put on the charm" to return you to status quo. The Narcissist can be very vicious at this stage. It is usually best to have as little contact as possible with the Narcissist. It is also the time to continue to learn about how to continue to protect yourself and continue to focus on you and your healing.
5) The Fall-Out Stage
This is when you become more comfortable in your knowledge of how to deal with the Narcissist, where you begin to forgive yourself, where you begin to feel better about yourself and your abilities. You are actively planning your future, getting to know yourself again, and you notice how much better physically and emotionally you feel out of the presence of the Narcissist. The fog of Narcissism has lifted somewhat and you begin to get your confidence back. While this is happening, you are still experiencing the waves of the past stages, it seems to come in cycles that diminish in intesity over time.
6) The Mirroring Stage
Not everyone goes through this stage, it is a personal decision. This is when you mirror the Narcissists behavior back at them, effectively scaring them off! I was particularily fond of this stage, because it allowed me to siphon off the anger and project it back to the person who caused it. It is effective in scaring off the Narcissist, but sometimes it takes many sessions of "mirroring" before the stubborn Narcissist finally "gets it". Unfortunately for many victims, many Narcissists aren‘t willing to accept that it is OVER and continually try to get back under the victims skin using guilt, fear, pity, threats, violence and financial abuse. Many Narcissists keep "coming back for more NS."
Depending on how you handle the Narcissist in this stage, it will depend on how long this stage lasts. If you, even for a moment give the Narcissist ANY NS at all, show any vulnerability, sympathy, fear, or confusion, it will put you back a few stages and you will have to work your way through again. This cycle can happen many times.
7) Realization and Apathy
Once you effectively block all means of communication with the Narcissist as efficiently as possible, protect yourself from them as much as you can, gain knowledge and confidence in yourself, you reach a stage of realization that there was nothing you could have done to help or prevent the nightmare that you just lived through. You start looking for effective ways to manage your life, work towards your new future and close the door in the face of the Narcissist. The most effective way that I have found to do this is with APATHY. Apathy works. It requires very little work on your part. You display no outward emotions towards the Narcissist, who seems to forever be trying to re-enter your life for the coveted NS, you yawn frequently whenever they have something to say, you outright IGNORE their existence as if they died.
Eventually, in a sense they do die, because without your attention, without your sympathy, without your guilt, without your adoration, without your anger, and without your fear, they do wither away and die. If there is nothing for them to affirm their existence through you, and they cannot exist around you. It is not to say that they won‘t try. They want to be able to evoke an emotional response in you. If you don‘t give them any, then eventually, like Pavlov‘s dog they figure out the bowl is empty and move on to the next victim. This stage can take some time, because as we know, the Narcissist does not give up on precious supply sources easily.
Hugs from Still Smilin
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| Topic: I think I‘m going crazy
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| Subject: I think I‘m going crazy - Posted: 5/29/2007 3:14:56 PM
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Umm..first of all...do you LOVE this man still?
Sorry...i know he is your "husband" and all...but REALLY!
Where does he GET OFF...Threatening to sleep with other women for ANY DAMN REASON!
Like he is some sort of CATCH or something better than You are...PULLEASSEEEEE!
You are NOT his babysitter!
You are NOT his mother...Stop setting his CLOTHES up already...he is a BIG BOY NOW!
You are NOT his SLAVE!
And you sure as HELL are not his whipping post or scapegoat for all HIS projected ISSUES!
And YES..he is ABUSIVE and the only person who can STOP THIS is you!
By setting BOUNDARIES of ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR...and when HE breaks them...you can ALLOW yourself to WALK OUT ON HIM!
Kids and all....or kick HIS sorry ass out...let him find some OTHER woman who will tolerate his MESSED UP RULES...
I say...Tell that A-hole...to go ahead and SLEEP with whom ever he wants..(shoot let him MOVE in with her if he wants, like you will be missing anything)
.Because the REASON the house is a mess is because You have been VERY busy with someone else yourself!
(See how he likes THAT image!!!!!!!!If he doesnt‘ CARE...that should give you CARTE BLANCHE to take him for ALL HE‘s WORTH!)
And Since he "LOVES" YOU so much...he shouldn‘t mind that you found SOMEONE to make you happy since HE DOES NOT!
TWO CAN PLAY AT THAT GAME..especially when the LOVE is gone!
Why not just file for divorce First!
I really hate to say this...but the ODDS are...he has ALREADY cheated on you...and is trying to justify his actions by Guilt tripping you and picking YOU apart so he doesn‘t have to feel badly about what HE HAS ALREADY DONE!
Threatening you and manipulating you is UNCALLED FOR!
Listen...i say...ask him if HE would like to join you in marriage counseling to work on HIS marriage to you.Because what he is proposing is NOT marriage. let alone acceptable..IT IS EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL and you DO NOT PLAY that anymore!!!!!!!The sad part is that.it says ALOT about his LACK OF emotional obligation to you...but hey..at least he is giving you fair warning..most a-hole husbands just CHEAT.AND keep thier "house keeper " wife for what SHE‘ good for to him...Ever heard of a Casanova Complex?
Does he even CARE about this third party he is going to USE for sex to get his rocks off and then stringing her along while he stays married to you his "doormat" wife...that is how he will TREAT you IF you alow this from him.And if you don‘t allow it..he might just do it anyways...if he already hasn‘t.
He might want to be reminded...HE IS NOT GOD!?
But he Sure might be a Sociopath....
Where do his ENTITLEMENT ISSUES stem from is all i want to know!
Why does HE get to have his CAKE and eat it too while you are supposed to just WAIT for him to finish with her...and take care of HIS 3 kids for HIM...
WHAT ABOUT YOU!
What is GOOD for the GOOSE is good for the gander!
Not that you want to USE some poor guy to make him jealous..but plant the SEED in HIS head...and see how he reacts...
These guys are all about ME ME ME.....and NO ONE can be with HIS WIFE...but HE can be with whomever HE wants?
Ask him if he wants to have an OPEN MARRIAGE where you BOTH screw other people...if not...he needs to shut the hell up or be ASKED to vacate...AND pay your bills...
I hate to say it..but i really think you have a Narcissist on your hands...and no...i don‘t think EVERY man is one..but close!
This guy is ALL about EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL...and you must learn how to DEAL with him from that angle...Know more than HE does about what he is doing...and DIFFUSE it the best you can with your own POWER.....you HAVE more power than you realize...and you need to USE it to protect yourself and your children...
I know how after years you lose alot to them...and I also know how men play these games BEHIND the kids backs and LOOK like the good guy..but you know better...and you have that on your side.
Your children are aware that things are not "right"...don‘t kid yourself.
Here are some sites that will give you some insight into YOUR RIGHTS, and exactly what he is doing to you...
It is EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL...and you don‘t have to tolerate this from ANYONE..LEAST of all your husband...
http://www.beingjane.com/bookReview.php?news_id=12&lang=&last=
http://www.soulwork.net/sw_articles_eng/emotional_blackmail.htm
http://eqi.org/eabuse1.htm
Emotional Abuse
http://www.jcfcc.vcn.com/emobattering.htm
FORMS OF EMOTIONAL BATTERING
Wishing you STRENGTH and a chance to STEP out of the F.O.G he has you in....
Ramble on
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| Topic: How to heal from abuse?
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| Subject: How to heal from abuse? - Posted: 5/30/2007 11:41:59 AM
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Sorry Lou Lou....I made it vanish.As I sometimes WISH i could,It is HARD to come to terms with WHY i have always been on the recieving end of abusers hands, mouths and dicks without looking at my past and how it conditioned me to accept and tolerate abuse in the name of love.One type of abuse or neglectlead to another. And after a life time of it..i seem to be the common denominator.There is no coincidence that i have loved Narcissistic people my whole life.Or emotional vampires, or ammoral predators, or verbal abusers or abandoners.But it is hard to face that my OWN demons, limitations,vulnerabilities and short comings lead me down paths that hurt me.So while i need to HEAL from others...i am also learning that I must HEAL FROM WITHIN.For some...it is easier to blame thier abusers for all...for me...i find that taking BACK my power and admitting to my own SHIT...i can have the sense that i am safer within my OWN healthy boundaries and NO ONE, not even a Sociopath might be able to BREACH me if i am aware that i need to KEEP MYSELF SAFE from them.That I can NOT trust people implicitly as i have always done. That i can NOT allow THEM to define me,to determine what I will tolerate, that blaming them for ALL serves no purpose but to GIVE THEM ALL THE POWER.All the control and all the shame, when i OWN MY OWN issues...just NOT THIERS.
I own my reactions...not thier actions.
I own ME...and they do NOT have utter power over me.
So here is my post again...as much as it seems like i am blaming myself for what others have done to me...i am not...i am taking control of WHAT I SHOULD have back then....and saying...I made some very monumental mistakes too....and i am trying to rectify them.I can‘t CAHNGE anyone but me.
http://www.coping.org/growth/accept.htm
What is accepting personal responsibility?
Accepting personal responsibility includes:
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Acknowledging that you are solely responsible for the choices in your life.
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Accepting that you are responsible for what you choose to feel or think.
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Accepting that you choose the direction for your life.
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Accepting that you cannot blame others for the choices you have made.
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Tearing down the mask of defense or rationale for why others are responsible for who you are, what has happened to you, and what you are bound to become.
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The rational belief that you are responsible for determining who your are, and how your choices affect your life.
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Pointing the finger of responsibility back to yourself and away from others when you are discussing the consequences of your actions.
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Realizing that you determine your feelings about any events or actions addressed to you, no matter how negative they seem.
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Recognizing that you are your best cheerleader; it is not reasonable or healthy for you to depend on others to make you feel good about yourself.
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Recognizing that as you enter adulthood and maturity, you determine how your self-esteem will develop.
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Not feeling sorry for the ``bum deal‘‘ you have been handed but taking hold of your life and giving it direction and reason.
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Letting go of your sense of over responsibility for others.
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Protecting and nurturing your health and emotional well being.
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Taking preventive health oriented steps of structuring your life with time management, stress management, confronting fears, and burnout prevention.
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Taking an honest inventory of your strengths, abilities, talents, virtues, and positive points.
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Developing positive, self-affirming, self-talk scripts to enhance your personal development and growth.
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Letting go of blame and anger toward those in your past who did the best they could, given the limitations of their knowledge, background, and awareness.
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Working out anger, hostility, pessimism, and depression over past hurts, pains, abuse, mistreatment, and misdirection.
My old post...about healing....
Glad to see you made it back, without a Legal hitch I assume.
And all the while I was simply trying to defend myself, protect myself.
While this is true...unfortunately...it was a bit too late.
Ask yourself...how many Red Flags did you ignore regarding this man...
And why?
But I find that I also reacted with the weight of all previous abuse.
No truer words were written! I have done the same thing in my life..the last abusive situation i bearly survived, TRULY took me to my knees.because of the accumulative effects of not having DEALT with the past in a way that might have made it possible for me to PROTECT msyelf from this man BEFORE...and not live with regrets afterwards...as i have.
..i reacted so strongly...it felt like my entire life had unfolded into a living nightmare of ALL of my past abuses.I had not dealt with any of them appropriately.It had just accumulated to the point that i HAD TO FACE MY DEMONS!
And in a way...the maN who I last "allowed" to Exploit me...did me a MONUMENTAL FAVOR...
He opened my eyes to my willingness to sacrifice myself for someone UNWORTHY of me.
So again...i sought out professional help.
I had not learned to have HEALTHY BOUNDARIES.
I had not learned that i had RIGHTS to get MY needs met.
I had not dealt with my own Abandonment issues.
I had mistaken SEX for love in almost all of my relationships.
I had hidden from my pain in Drugs for years.
I had fed into my "need" for chaos that had developed thanks to years of being conditioned by it within a COMPLETELY dysfunctional family environment....
I had no CLUE what a Betrayal Bond was, let alone Love addiction or Codependency.Or Abandoholsim...I was a MESS...and in some ways..I WILL ALWAYS BE A BIT OFF...and I do NOT feel shame for that..nor do i BLAME myself for who I am...but i DO take responsibility for my CHOICES in life...
I do NOT blame my abusers for ALL...
How could I? Anymore than i blame me...but I do take personal responsibility for the CHOICES and REACTIONS I have made that have landed me in painful relationships.
I LOVE ME MORE NOW...i accept my limitations...and i STRIVE for a better life for myself.And my 3 children who NEED ME!
I have NOT given up on HOPE on life, love or happiness...let alone on me!
FAR from it!
But i have given up on HELPING Others that haven‘t even asked for it...at my own expense!
Every single messed up situation i have survived..has TAUGHT ME SOMETHING about myself, about my weak points, about who i dont‘ want to be, about who i do want to be...
I know now what my strenghts and weaknessess are......and i FORGIVE myself for hurting ME through other people.
All those NEGATIVE people I let into my life to reiterate what i already THOUGHT about myself...have been BANNED!
I do NOT need ANYMORE assholes to make me feel worse than i already have in my life!
I have SHUT OFF the negative tapes implanted into my head by others with thier OWN negative tapes...I have made evey effort to excommunicate ANYONE who does not LOVE ME, CARE ABOUT ME OR appreciate that I have a RIGHT to care about MYSELF!
But they were ALL in my life for a REASON...to force me to GROW UP and face that I CHOSE THEM!
I stuck by them when they were hurting me.
I loved them despite what they said and did to me.
I did EVERYTHING for abusers I WISHED they had had the DECENCY to do for me...
I made a MISTAKE!
I could NOT HELP THEM...
I needed to HELP MYSELF!
The worse off THEY were...the less of a loser i felt I was...for awhile...then...i started to realize...i was NO BETTER THAN THEY WERE!
I was somehow not as messed up IF i chose men who were WORSE off than I was.
I was going to RESCUE THEM...LMAO!
Instead..they took me down WITH THEM...and then laughed as I stood there saying...
WHAT ABOUT ME??????
WHAT ABOUT Me????????
WHAT ABOUT ME??????
And they said...WHAT ABOUT YOU!!!!!!!!
I remember thinking that my WHOLE CHILDHOOD!
if i love THEM enough...even though they seem to HATE ME...maybe they will finally love me back...
I CHOSE emotionally unavailable people for a REASON!
I didn‘t even REALIZE i had been CHOOSING the same types of relationships i had had as a child..ABUSIVE ONES,and BLAMING the people I CHOSE on them!
I am accountable for WHO i choose to love THEN and now.
What I allow to happen to me.
I am in CONTROL of my own destiny and i am NO ONES Victim anymore.
I take personal responsibility for EVERYTHING that has happened to me PAST being left by both SETS of my DYSFUNCTIONAL parents...They had NOTHING to offer me anyways..past being raised by Alcholics, past.being sexually abused as an 8 year old.
I am not at fault for what others have done to me..but I am responsibile for how i REACTED to thier abuses as an adult, and even as a teen...
I began therapy at 16 years old...8 years too late...and yes...i was already in SELF DESTRUCT MODE...
There are long terms effects to Sexual abuse...to being abandoned, to be rasied by dysfunctional adults. in the end...Through NO FAULT OF MY OWN...
I kept RECREATING the same dynamics of my past abuses..If they had left me, i SUBCONSIOUSLY found someone else who would.continue where they left off.....If no one was around...i abused myself..
I was taught to HATE MYSELF by my abusers...and that made it all too easy to be repeatedly abused. And to tolerate it as IF it was normal!
As time went on...and i SOUGHT OUT obviously BAD choice for myself...I LIVED out those Consequences.I paid in more pain for my lack of awareness about my own dynamics.
And yes...IT HURT LIKE HELL!
I WEPT FOR YEARS...I would jsut wake UP crying...all the time...
I could not even have sex without crying for a long time..
I could not look at anyone without FEARING THEM...
But you know who i truly feared?
ME! And my dysfunctional CHOICES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
But who i hold responsibile for all that pain is ME.
I made the CHOICE to let others CONTROL ME!
I tolerated abuse thinking it was love
I couldn‘t allow anyone to leave me.
So I let them hurt me.
I had many choices in my life...i CHOSE to allow others to DEFINE ME...CONTROL ME.... ABUSE ME....By NOT choosing to STOP THEM!
By NOT taking the CONTROL i gave them BACK!
Alot of my healing has come in spurts and fits...
I can‘t tell you HOW TO HEAL FROM YOUR ABUSE....
But I can tell you one thing....
If you take a personal inventory of all your choices in life...and accept that YOU MADE those choices, even if That choice was to ALLOW someone else to make them for you....You might see that you can make BETTER and more Positive Choices that will in the end...actually have the CHANCE to have BETTER outcomes...
Than the ones that keep bringing you down the same roads to pain.
I suggest...you begin to seek a professional to help you sort out your past...
To help you deal with the last man you chose.
To help you learn that you are loveable..and worthy and that you need not settle for less.
I hate to tell you this...but if you dont‘ change your own patterns...you will only attract and be attracted to the same types of people who bring you pain...
I have been through a few men who hurt me in life...because of my own issues...
No man CAN abuse a Woman with RENEWED Dignity, Self Respect and SELF WORTH!
I think just you being here says..You have HAD ENOUGH...and are more than READY For change...
I think you just need someone to have FAITH in you....
Sometimes....when no one is around...we just need to have faith in ourselves!
NEVER GIVE UP ON YOU LOU LOU!
You are WORTH THE EFFORT~
Ramble On!
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| Topic: Taking Personal Responsibility...........NOT BLAME......
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| Subject: Taking Personal Responsibility...........NOT BLAME...... - Posted: 5/30/2007 12:31:19 PM
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Is key to our Happiness, our healing,our ability to create positive outcomes and changing our own negative patterns.Forgive and "Forget about" what "they" did to us...And focus on what WE can do to protect ourselves from our own choices in the future.Our happiness is in our hands.We do have to OWN our own negative choices in Men who have harmed us...in order to ALTER them into positive ones.
Ramble On
Self Improvement Article
http://www.personalgrowthplanet.com/self-improvement/personalresponibility.htm
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"Taking Personal Responsibility" by Brian Tracy
Did you ever stop to think that everything you are or ever will be is completely up to you? Just imagine! You are where you are because of who you are. Everything that exists in your life exists because of you, because of your behavior, words and actions. Because you have freedom of choice and because you have chosen each and every circumstance of your life, you are completely responsible for all of your success and failure, your happiness and unhappiness, your present and future.
OUCH! SAD BUT TRUE!
That thought is like a parachute jump: It’s scary and exhilarating at the same time. It’s one of the biggest and most important ideas that can ever occur to you, or anyone else. The acceptance of personal responsibility is what separates the adult from the child. It’s the great leap forward into maturity. Responsibility is the hallmark of the fully integrated, fully functioning human being. Responsibility goes hand in hand with success, achievement, motivation, happiness and self-actualization. It’s the absolute minimum requirement for the accomplishment of everything you could ever really want in life. Accepting that you’re completely responsible for yourself and realizing that no one is coming to the rescue is the beginning of peak performance. There’s very little that you cannot do or have after you accept that “If it’s to be, it’s up to me!”
The opposite of accepting responsibility is making excuses and blaming people and things for what’s going on in your life. And since everything we do is a matter of habit, if people get into the habit of making excuses, they get into the habit of evading responsibility at the same time. If they set a goal or objective for themselves, they immediately create an excuse that they hold in reserve just in case the accomplishment of the goal is too difficult or requires more self-discipline and persistence than they had thought. As soon as things start to go poorly, irresponsible people trot out their excuse and let themselves off the hook. But that won’t get them anywhere in the long run.
A basic law of human life was first espoused by Socrates more than 400 years before Christ. It’s called the Law of Causality. We call it the Law of Cause and Effect. It states that for every effect in your life, there’s a cause. If there’s any effect that you desire, or desire more of, you can trace it back to the cause, and by duplicating the cause, you can have the effect.
For example, everyone wants to be healthy. If you set a high level of physical health and energy as your goal, or the desired effect, you can have it simply by finding out the cause, by finding out what other healthy and energetic people do with regard to diet, exercise and rest, and by doing the same thing. If you do, you’re likely to get the same result. This is no miracle. It sounds simple, but in many cases, it’s one of the hardest things in the world to do.
Unhappiness is an effect as well. If you wish to be happy, the first thing to do is to decide for yourself the kind of life situation in which you would feel wonderful. Think of the very best times of your life, and think of what you were doing, where you were doing it, and the people you were with at the time. Then write out, in complete detail, a description of your ideal lifestyle. Now you have defined the effect that you desire.
Next, look at your current life and ask yourself, “What are all the things in my life that are inconsistent with the lifestyle that would make me happy?” In other words, look at the causes of the effects that you don’t like. Then make a decision to begin alleviating or removing those causes, one by one, until what you have left is the kind of life you want to live.
Your thoughts are extremely powerful. They have the power to raise and lower your blood pressure, your pulse rate and your respiratory rate. They can affect your digestion. And if your thoughts are strong enough, they can even make you sick or healthy. Your thoughts tend to trigger images in your mind, and the feelings in your body are consistent with them. If you think or read happy, healthy thoughts, you will have happy, healthy pictures and experience happy, healthy emotions. As Deepak Chopra points out in his audiocassette program Magical Mind, Magical Body, every part of your mind is connected to every single part of your body in a complex web of messages and impulses that affect everything you feel, say and do.
Only you can think your thoughts, only you can decide what you’ll dwell upon, what you’ll read and listen to, who you’ll associate with and the conversations you’ll engage in; therefore, you are totally responsible for all the consequences of all those behaviors. It’s unavoidable.
Perhaps the most important part of the subject of self-responsibility involves your happiness and your peace of mind. There seems to be a direct relationship between responsibility and happiness on the one hand, and irresponsibility and unhappiness on the other hand. Let me explain.
First of all, the key to happiness is having a sense of control over what’s going on in your life. The more you feel that you’re in control, the happier you’ll be. Men and women who have risen to the top of their organizations tend to be far happier than people further down. This is because they feel far more in control of their destinies, far more capable of making decisions and taking action. The more responsibility you take in your company, the more power, authority and respect you’ll receive. One of the smartest things you can do is to take responsibility for the most important concerns of your boss.
The more you accept responsibility for getting results in the areas that your boss considers most important, the more valuable and indispensable you’ll become in your organization. People who want more money and more respect often think that they can get it simply by asking for it or by politicking.
The truth is that it will accrue to you rapidly as soon as you “step up to the plate” and undertake responsibility for results in your organization. The most respected people in any company are those who are the most capable of getting the most important jobs done on schedule.
The more responsibility you take, the more in control you are. And the freer you are, especially in your own mind, to make decisions and to do the things you want to do. So there’s a direct relationship between responsibility, control, freedom and happiness.
The happiest people in the world are those who feel absolutely terrific about themselves, and this is the natural outgrowth of accepting total responsibility for every part of their lives.
At the other end of the spectrum, there is irresponsibility, or the failure to accept responsibility. Each person is somewhere in between, moving toward a higher level of responsibility or irresponsibility with every word and every decision.
In fact, a good definition of insanity is total irresponsibility, to the point of needing a straitjacket and a padded cell. Thomas Szasz, the great psychoanalyst, once wrote, “There is no such thing as insanity. There are only varying levels of irresponsibility.”
A person who is completely irresponsible is subject to anger, hostility, fear, resentment, doubt-all sorts of negative emotions. And here’s why. All negative emotions tend to be associated with blame. Fully 99 percent of all our problems exist only because we’re able to blame someone or something for them. The instant we stop blaming, our negative emotions begin disappearing.
What’s the antidote to blaming? It’s simple! Since your mind can hold only one thought at a time, either positive or negative, you can override the tendency to blame and become angry simply by saying, firmly, “I am responsible!”
You can’t accept responsibility for a situation and be angry at the same time. You can’t accept responsibility and be unhappy or upset. The acceptance of responsibility negates negative emotions and short-circuits any tendencies toward unhappiness.
The very act of accepting responsibility calms your mind and clarifies your vision. It soothes your emotions and enables you to think more positively and constructively. In fact, the acceptance of responsibility often gives you insight into what you should do to resolve the situation.
Here’s an exercise: Look at the most common problems and difficulties that people have in life. Apply this simple remedy of accepting responsibility to each one, and see what happens.
People have problems with other people-their spouses, their children, their friends, their coworkers and their bosses. Someone once said that almost all of our problems in life have hair on top, come on two legs and talk back. So think of the people in your life who cause you any stress or anxiety and ask yourself who is responsible. Are they responsible for being in your life, or are you responsible for having them in your life?
According to the Law of Attraction, you’re a living magnet in that you invariably attract people into your life who harmonize with your dominant thoughts and emotions. The people in your life are there because you’ve attracted them by the person you are, by the thoughts you hold, by the emotions you experience. If you’re not happy with the people surrounding you, you’re responsible. You’re attracting them, and you’re keeping them there.
Let me give you an example. I have four beautiful children. For a long time, when my children were behaving in ways that I felt were inappropriate, I had a tendency to blame or criticize them. However, the more I studied child raising and learned about the subject, the more I found that children are almost totally reactive.
Their behaviors are almost always responses to what is going on around them and to their relationships with their parents. So I began asking the question, “What is it in me that is causing my child to act this way?” As soon as I turned the question around, and looked to myself for the reason-in effect, accepted complete responsibility for my children’s behavior-I was able to see what I might be doing, or not doing, that my children were reacting to. Perhaps I wasn’t spending enough one-on-one time with them. Perhaps I wasn’t listening to them when they wanted to talk. Perhaps I was too quick to question their report cards.
I began to apply that simple principle to every other part of my life as well. I began asking, “What is it in me that is causing this external situation?”
If the Law of Correspondence is true (and it is), and everything that is happening to you on the outside is due to something that is happening to you on the inside, then the first place to look is within. As soon as you do that, you begin to see things that you had completely missed when you were busy blaming others and making excuses. You begin to see that you’re responsible in large measure for the things that are happening to you.
If you’re in a bad relationship, who got you there? You likely weren’t marched into the relationship and kept there at gunpoint. So it’s largely a matter of free will and free choice on your part. If you’re not happy, it’s up to you to do something about it. As Henry Ford II once said, “Never complain, never explain.” If you’re not happy with the situation, do something about it. If you’re not willing to do something about it, then don’t complain.
There’s the story of the construction worker who opens up his lunch box at the noon break and unwraps his sandwich to find that it contains sardines. He gets really upset and complains loudly to everyone around him about how much he hates sardines. The next day, the same thing happens: a sardine sandwich. Again, the construction worker shouts and complains about how much he hates sardines for lunch. The third day it happens again. By this time, his fellow workers are getting fed up with his loud complaining. One of them leans over and says to him, “If you hate sardines so much, why don’t you tell your wife to make you some other kind of sandwich?” The construction worker turns to the fellow and says, “Oh, I’m not married. I make my own lunches!”
Many of us get into the same situation as the construction worker’s and complain about circumstances that are almost entirely of our own making. Is this true for you? Look over your relationships and ask where this might be true in your life.
Are you happy with your job? Are you happy with the amount of money you’re earning? Are you happy with your level of responsibility and your activities each day? If you’re not, you need to accept that you’re completely responsible for every aspect of your job and your career.
Why? Because you chose it freely. You took the job, you assumed the responsibilities, and you accepted the wage. If you’re not happy with any of them, for any reason, then it’s up to you to do something different.
You’re earning today exactly what you’re worth-not a penny more, not a penny less. In life, we tend to get exactly what we deserve. If you’re not satisfied with the amount you’re getting, look around you, at people who are doing the kind of work you would like to do and earning the kind of money you would like to earn. Ask them what they’re doing differently from what you’re doing. What are the causes of the effects they’re getting? Once you know what they are, accept complete responsibility for your situation, apply your wonderful mind and abilities, back them with willpower and self-discipline, and get busy making the changes you need to make to enjoy the life you want to enjoy.
Your great aim in life is to develop character. Character is composed of self-esteem, self-discipline, the ability to delay gratification, and the willingness to accept full responsibility for your life and everything in it. The more you say to yourself, “I am responsible,” the stronger, better and finer a person you become. And every part of your life will improve at the same time.
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Brian Tracy is one of the world‘s leading authorities on personal and business success. His fast-moving talks and seminars on leadership, sales, managerial effectiveness and business strategy are loaded with powerful, proven ideas and strategies that people can immediately apply to get better results in every area. For more information about his work or to sign up for his free newsletter click here
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| Topic: How to heal from abuse?
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| Subject: How to heal from abuse? - Posted: 5/31/2007 11:47:34 AM
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"But are we responsible for being conned? I think not.
I am responsible for staying on long after the red flags, I decided, I just knew, but I saw he wanted to change. And I believed he was a fundamentally good man... These were my excuses for staying. But I wonder with the weight and damage of all previous traumas if you have any choice in the face of such strong self destructive impulse. Maybe it is a choice to stay on and destroy yourself, a subconscious choice.
Maybe be...maybe it is a Betrayal bond we had no control over...But one things for sure..it was SO STRONG...and so confusing...it felt like i had NO CONTROL of myself. I was HIS PUPPET.I was ADDICTED to altering him BACK to who he pretended he was.And he was the king of manipulation and knew just what strings to pull...
With all that said, I was thinking that there must be something very wrong with me that I attract such kind of people. Something in me must fit right with the abusive, narcissist, pathological personnalities of these three abusers. And it‘s probably as pathological.
When you describe the various things that you had to heal, they also fit me completely.
But are we responsible for being conned? I think not."
I am not taking an ounce of responsibility for being conned., exploited or scapegoated.My only fault there was trusting the man at his word, but i did ignore his contradictory actions because he kept going back and forth and i just thought he was confused....I had to look deeply into his behaviors to find out what was possibly going on with him and also myself and why i was REACTING NORMALLY TO ABNORMAL BEHAVIORS in himEven HE said..." How could YOU know?" And "It‘s not YOU, it‘s me.".Or,I‘m the asshole, STOP apologizing to ME."Even as he said it..i questioned him.Or," Please don‘t hold my lies against me, I‘m the bain of my own existence". All sorts of Signs came forth as i was on my way out...
But while i was his client...and ultimately his sexual conquest, i ws lead to believe i was SPECIAL....LMAO!
I am FAR from special...and i should NEVER have fallen for THAT bullshit line!
Why do Sociopathic men use that and "I love you " to get sex?
It RUINS it for all the HONEST men out here.
I dont BELIEVE WORD ONE out of a mans mouth and i doubt I ever will again.
And thank you for admitting that you have some of the same issues as I do.I feel less alone.I have given up on "Fundamental Goodness" in people.At this point...that just seems way too naive and gullible and not self protective in the least.I don‘t know if i am pathologically altered thanks to my past, but i do know...there are some serious long term effects that stem from abandonment, sexual abuse and alcholism in my primary care givers, and i can just ignore that. Let alone that I too have had 3 ABUSIVE PSUEDO loves in my life. And all 3 helped me feel as if i was INSANE for having normal human expectations of them.
I am a GIVER...and i always attract SELFISH and IRRESPONSIBLE TAKERS and USERS.
Damn if i know why.
But boy...did he GET ME BUT GOOD...and If i don‘t figure out how and why i am such a GREAT and easy Target for these assholes...
I am afraid to trust people still.
And all for what?
Some loser who had no conscience who BENT ME into someone i don‘t even recognize?
I miss trusting people.And i don‘t think i am pathological for thinking i should be able to TRUST.
Nor are you.
Please...bear with me...sometimes i find that i get in the lead...and i don‘t always know exactly where i am going.I am very honest with my feelings, but they too fluctuate.
I am always sorting my emotions...without someones objective opinion to help guide me.
I fluctuate between wanting to BLAME THEM FOR ALL...and BLAME ME FOR ALL...
There has to be a "happy medium" that might just keep us safer.
I figure....it has GOT TO BE about Taking personal responsibility for our own choices...because i sure as hell can‘t control or dictate to anyone else.
Did you happen to check out the NPD forum?
There are alot of women who are more level headed and CLEAR about things in there...I would join you, but i already dared to Quesiton Authority there and was banned...that felt like HELL RELIVED after I had been discarded by the ex-N....luckily, i am FAR from alone in that problem.
But there are some rational women there who can help you...understand better than I can i hope.
Not that their aren‘t here...I just have always tried to find as much imput from as many sources to give myself plenty of help finding the answer that are right for me.
One thing i know for sure...I am a good and honest person and i never realized that such dishonest and bad people even existed until it was too late.Now that I know....living feels more dangerous.
And letting my guards down is so hard, i am about to ruin my already shaky marriage.
Thanks to the fact that i am NOT OVER the past...and it effects me every day...STILL.....
And if anyone knew the details...the odds where...they would say....and they have said...
YOU ASKED FOR IT.
I know i never asked for what he put me through...EVER!
I thought he meant what he said...My bad for believing him...
NO..HIS BAD FOR LYING.
Take care...Kristin
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| Topic: What does a narcissist look like??????
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| Subject: What does a narcissist look like?????? - Posted: 5/31/2007 12:22:36 PM
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I just wondered what to do with all this anger I feel now.
FEEL IT...But do not internalize it.It is a natural reaction to being decieved.Just try not to let it RULE you.
But...one thing is FOR SURE...don‘t waste your time trying to effect HIS conscience with it.I tried that and was PUNISHED all the more,they are masters at projection and defense mechanisms RULE thier lives.
From what I know about NPD...thier GOAL is to con you in for NS, only to control and induce thier own abandonment...and since i never thought he should get away SCOTT FREE with NA(NO accountability) i kept going back to GUILT TRIP HIM...
To Threaten him with THE TRUTH of him...he hated that...but i got some satifaction.
Not that it worked in changing him..but it did make me feel a little better to SHOW HIM MY ANGER...unfortunately...i could see he could have cared less that i was angry...and continued to make me angrier with his indifference or his Counter Threats.
It became a serious power struggle...and moving away was the best way for me to GIVE UP.And diffuse it without closure.
I found this...but i am sure there are plenty of ways to constructively deal with your residual and JUSTIFIED anger...
The thing is...i had a hard time serparating who i was angry with most..HIM OR I.
I can‘t understand how i could be so gullible and blame him for all.
But i guess the was they do everything keeps us guessing...so really, it is hard to know who did what wrong in the end.
http://www.pe2000.com/anger_artl.htm
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| Topic: Need help!
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| Subject: Need help! - Posted: 6/5/2007 4:06:39 AM
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What you don‘t understand is that she is LOYAL to her abuser for many psychological reasons that SHE doesn‘t even understand.
These two people are "dancing" together thanks to thier pasts...and if she can‘t hear you over him, there is nothing you can do to disengage them.But wait and pray that he doesnt‘ kill her as she tries to figure out how to LEAVE HIM and STAY GONE!
Ask her what happened in her past that lead her to BELIEVE this is all she is worth.
Ask her is she wants to CHANGE for herself?
Ask her is she is aware that she is in danger, and that SHE is the only person who can SAVE HERSELF?
Tell her that the man she thinks loves her Doesn‘t, and ABUSE IS NOT LOVE...and when she is ready to FACE HER DEMONS...she might just have a chance at REAL HAPPINESS...
Offer her this as an explaination for WHY SHE STAYS with an abuser.
betrayal bonds: trauma repitition
trauma repitition: This aspect of betrayal bonds involves reenactment or re-creation of prior traumas. Carnes calls it "living in the unremembered past." This can take several forms. Some get in abusive relationships that re-enact the original trauma. Sometimes it manifests itself in a compulsive behavior. Compulsive masturbation, for example, is usually a reenactment of a childhood trauma. Combined with shame, the person often becomes suicidal. The key to understanding trauma repetition is that "in part, trauma repetition is an effort by the victim [or insome cases, the victim/perpetrator] to bring resolution to a traumatic memory. " It is a way of coping with old traumas, but instead of resolving the past, it creates new wounds, compounding and multiplying the problem. This is where complex ptsd comes from -- the continued repetition and compounding of some earlier trauma. For me that was childhood emotional, physical, and sexual abuse in a a family run by a raging alcoholic father and a classically co-dependent mother. It was a large family, and traumas inflicted on older siblings would then be reenacted on the younger ones. Unfortunately, one form of trauma reenactment is "to victimize people in the same way they victimized you." While not all trauma repetition is perpetration (unless you want to count self-perpetration, which is sort of a contradiction of terms), all -- or nearly all -- perpetration is a repetition of some kind of trauma that the perpetrator also lived through. One perpetrator often victimizes many people, so the effects get spread widely. I reenacted things by somehow managing to always find relationships with abusive people, allowing both them and me to re-create traumatic experiences in a sick relationship. According to Carnes (and I‘m mostly but not exactly quoting), trauma repetition is characterized by repeated self-destructive (or destructive) behavior, usually of a repetition of some childhood trauma; reliving a story from the past, engaging in abusive relationships repeatedly (this was my pattern -- I thought abuse was normal, and couldn‘t even recognize it as such until I got in a non-abusive relationship and got help); repeating painful experiences, including specific behaviors, scenes, persons, and feelings; doing something to others that you experienced as an early life trauma. All the quotations and information not otherwise attributed above comes from Patrick J. Carnes, The Betrayal Bond: Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships (Deerfield Beach, Fla.: Health Communications Inc., 1997), 24-26.
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| Topic: Need help!
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| Subject: Need help! - Posted: 6/5/2007 8:13:14 AM
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ToucheBaby...
You are welcome for the info.
Thanks to help i recieved over the years by women who understood and even the VERY JUDGEMENTAL people I have run into in them. I have found out SO Much i never knew about myself and others....
I feel ENLIGHTENED by life now.
It has so helped me find my way back to LOVE without FEAR!
To love WITHOUT ABUSE. To Healthy boundaries and DREAMS of Better futures.
TO CHANGE Me and how i REACT to abuse.
I can only pass it on, let go of the outcome and hope that others find thier way out...and into BETTER LIVES for themselves.
Because WE ALL ARE WORTH IT!!!!!!!
You are a VERY KIND FRIEND to try and seek advice for her, but SHE MUST DO IT FOR HERSELF ...WE ALL have had to do that.
Scary as it was...to admit to our faults and weaknesses and vulnerabilities...there is NO WAY AROUND IT...
We have to go through it to GROW!
BUT, i KNOW how frustrating it can be to try and REACH, let alone effect people who are STUCK.
I had a niece who was being abused in every way possible.I offered her EVERYTHING i had to get OUT! She stayed with HIM and punished me away for NOT understanding why she had to prove HER love to her abusive husband.
She tied my hands with HER FEAR...and i gave up.
One day...she FINALLY LEFT HIM...and while i WANTED to be the CATALYST that helped her CHANGE HER LIFE...I had to let her find her OWN WAY...and she did.
We can‘t change others...
We can ONLY CHANGE ourselves.
But it CAN BE DONE.
IT TAKES A VOICE and COURAGE...that is all.
I feel SO badly for the women who "lurk" here without a voice.To me that is a fate WORSE THAN DEATH.
I have been SILENCED from speaking MY TRUTHS for many years by MANY FEAR BASED THINKERS..and i thought..
BULLSHIT...i am WOMAN...HEAR ME ROAR! LOL
I challenge ALL WOMEN TO FIND THIER VOICE.
PLEASE...JOIN US and ask for support...there is NO need to stay silent!
To offer or take advice is why we joined here.
There is NO SHAME in anyones choices or postions or behaviors...only in NOT helping ourselves to GROW~!
To use fear as the friend it is, we must retrain and reprogram ourselves...We must persistently and convincingly tell ourselves that the fear is here--with its gift of energy and heightened awareness--so we can do our best and learn the most in the new situation.
Peter McWilliams, Life 101
Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.
John Wayne (1907 - 1979)
There is only one success - to be able to spend your life in your own way. Christopher Morley (1890 - 1957)
Wishing you well...Ramble On
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| Topic: Taking Personal Responsibility...........NOT BLAME......
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| Subject: Taking Personal Responsibility...........NOT BLAME...... - Posted: 6/6/2007 4:39:04 PM
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Accepting Personal Responsibility
Content:
http://www.coping.org/growth/accept.htm
What is accepting personal responsibility?
Accepting personal responsibility includes:
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Acknowledging that you are solely responsible for the choices in your life.
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Accepting that you are responsible for what you choose to feel or think.
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Accepting that you choose the direction for your life.
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Accepting that you cannot blame others for the choices you have made.
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Tearing down the mask of defense or rationale for why others are responsible for who you are, what has happened to you, and what you are bound to become.
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The rational belief that you are responsible for determining who your are, and how your choices affect your life.
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Pointing the finger of responsibility back to yourself and away from others when you are discussing the consequences of your actions.
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Realizing that you determine your feelings about any events or actions addressed to you, no matter how negative they seem.
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Recognizing that you are your best cheerleader; it is not reasonable or healthy for you to depend on others to make you feel good about yourself.
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Recognizing that as you enter adulthood and maturity, you determine how your self-esteem will develop.
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Not feeling sorry for the ``bum deal‘‘ you have been handed but taking hold of your life and giving it direction and reason.
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Letting go of your sense of over responsibility for others.
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Protecting and nurturing your health and emotional well being.
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Taking preventive health oriented steps of structuring your life with time management, stress management, confronting fears, and burnout prevention.
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Taking an honest inventory of your strengths, abilities, talents, virtues, and positive points.
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Developing positive, self-affirming, self-talk scripts to enhance your personal development and growth.
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Letting go of blame and anger toward those in your past who did the best they could, given the limitations of their knowledge, background, and awareness.
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Working out anger, hostility, pessimism, and depression over past hurts, pains, abuse, mistreatment, and misdirection.
How can failing to accept personal responsibility result in negative consequences?
When you have not accepted personal responsibility, you can run the risk of becoming:
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Overly dependent on others for recognition, approval, affirmation, and acceptance.
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Chronically hostile, angry, or depressed over how unfairly you have been or are being treated.
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Fearful about ever taking a risk or making a decision.
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Overwhelmed by disabling fears.
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Unsuccessful at the enterprises you take on in life.
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Unsuccessful in personal relationships.
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Emotionally or physically unhealthy.
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Addicted to unhealthy substances, such as the abuse of alcohol, drugs, food, or unhealthy behavior such as excessive gambling, shopping, sex, smoking, work, etc.
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Over responsible and guilt ridden in your need to rescue and enable others in your life.
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Unable to develop trust or to feel secure with others.
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Resistant to vulnerability.
What do people believe who have not accepted personal responsibility?
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It‘s not my fault I am the way I am.
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I never asked to be born.
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Now that you have me, what are you going to do with me?
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I want you to fix me.
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Life is unfair! There is no sense in trying to take control of my life.
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Why go on; I see no use in it.
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You can‘t help me, nobody can help me. I‘m useless and a failure.
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God has asked too much of me this time. There is no way I‘ll ever be able to handle this.
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When do the troubles and problems cease? I‘m tired of all this.
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Stop the world; I want to get off.
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Life is so depressing. If only I had better luck and had been born to a healthier family, or attended a better school, or gotten a better job, etc.
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How can you say I am responsible for what happens to me in the future? There is fate, luck, politics, greed, envy, wicked and jealous people, and other negative influences that have a greater bearing on my future than I have.
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How can I ever be happy, seeing how bad my life has been?
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My parents made me what I am today!
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The problems in my family have influenced who I am and what I will be; there is nothing I can do to change that.
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Racism, bigotry, prejudice, sexism, ageism, and closed mindedness all stand in the way of my becoming what I really want to be.
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No matter how hard I work, I will never get ahead.
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You have to accept the luck of the draw.
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I am who I am; there is no changing me.
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No one is going to call me crazy, depressed, or troubled and then try to change me.
What terms are used to describe those who have not accepted personal responsibility?
martyrs. self-pitying, depressed, losers, quitters, chronically angry, dependent personalities, complainers, addictive personalities, blamers, stubborn, persons in denial, troubled people, stuck, fearful, pessimists, despondent, mentally unstable, obstinate, hostile, aggressive, irresponsible, weak, guilt ridden, resistant to help, passive, irrational, insecure, neurotic, obsessed, lost
What behavior traits need to be developed in order to accept personal responsibility?
In order to accept personal responsibility you need to develop the ability to:
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Seek out and to accept help for yourself.
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Be open to new ideas or concepts about life and the human condition.
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Refute irrational beliefs and overcome fears.
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Affirm yourself positively.
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Recognize that you are the sole determinant of the choices you make.
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Recognize that you choose your responses to the people, actions, and events in your life.
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Let go of anger, fear, blame, mistrust, and insecurity.
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Take risks and to become vulnerable to change and growth in your life.
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Take off the masks of behavior characteristics behind which you hide low self-esteem.
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Reorganize your priorities and goals.
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Realize that you are the party in charge of the direction your life takes.
ramble on...
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| Topic: Love Addiction
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| Subject: Love Addiction - Posted: 6/7/2007 6:19:55 AM
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"Why do some people live with the theory if they can‘t make you angry...it means you don‘t care?
Why do people think if they have made you angry...it means you care about "them"?
These are really simple questions and people get them wrong all the time! "
ToucheBaby
All we are talking about here is a dysfunctional relationship with ourselves and others.And internal "game" that get‘s played out in relationships that is self destructive.It takes ALOT to reprogram ourselves to FEEL intimacy, trust and risk real Love when all we have know is the other kind.Dysfunctional and/or Abusive.
No one get‘s out our thier childhoods without some amount of Emotional Scar Tissue and that unfortunately EFFECTS all of our future relationships in one way or another.
I think first though, it takes recognizing what we are doing by looking at our patterns...acknowledging them and setting about change.
The problem is...most people just can‘t SEE themselves objectively.Are stuck in denial or are just plain afraid to look.
I found out that i have love addictive/codependant characteristics thanks to my upbringing.While that is NOT my fault...it IS my responsibility to STOP WHINNING, doing the same thing over and over again and ending up with the SAME DAMN results, and CHANGE.
We do have the choice as to whether we are going to be Victims of "Love" or not, but ultimately...I think, we NEED to challenge ourselves out of our patterns, if we can figure out exactly who we are, and why we choose the people we do and why they choose us.
Ramble On
LOVE ADDICTION
http://www.drirene.com/obsessed_love.htm
In the last decade, a lot has changed in the world of love addiction. Not that love addiction itself has changed. It is pretty much the same insidious disorder it always has been. What has changed is how the world looks at it. Twenty years ago, our understanding of love addiction was still emerging out of our understanding of codependency. Therefore, love addiction and codependency seemed to be one in the same. However, today we understand that this is not true. Love addiction stands alone, and codependency is only one of several underlying personality disorders. To make it perfectly clear how one love addict differs from another here is a list:
Obsessed Love Addicts (OLAs) cannot let go, even if their partners are:
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Unavailable emotionally or sexually |
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Afraid to commit |
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Cannot communicate |
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Unloving |
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Distant |
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Abusive |
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Controlling and dictatorial |
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Ego-centric |
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Selfish |
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Addicted to something outside the relationship (hobbies, drugs, alcohol, sex, someone else, gambling, shopping etc.) |
Codependent Love Addicts (CLAs) are the most widely recognized. They fit a pretty standard profile. Most of them suffer from low self-esteem and have a certain predictable way of thinking, feeling and behaving. This means that from a place of insecurity and low self-esteem, they try desperately to hold on to the people they are addicted to using codependent behavior. This includes enabling, rescuing, caretaking, passive-aggressive controlling, and accepting neglect or abuse. In general, CLAs will do anything to “take care” of their partners in the hope that they will not leave—or that someday they will reciprocate.
Relationship Addicts (RAs), unlike other love addicts, are no longer in love with their partners but they cannot let go. Usually, they are so unhappy that the relationship is usually affecting their health, spirit and emotional well being. Even if their partner batters them, and they are in danger, they cannot let go. They are afraid of being alone. They are afraid of change. They do not want to hurt or abandon their partners. This can be described as “I hate you don’t leave me.”
Narcissistic Love Addicts (NLAs) use dominance, seduction and withholding to control their partners. Unlike codependents, who accept a lot of discomfort, narcissists won’t put up with anything that interferes with their happiness. They are self-absorbed and their low self-esteem is masked by their grandiosity. Furthermore, rather than seeming to obsess about the relationship, NLAs appear aloof and unconcerned. They do not appear to be addicted at all. Rarely do you even know that NLAs are hooked until you try to leave them. Then they will no longer be aloof and uncaring. They will panic and use anything at their disposal to hold on to the relationship—including violence. Many professionals have rejected the idea that narcissists can be love addicts. This may be because they rarely come in for treatment. However, if you have ever seen how some narcissists react to perceived or real abandonment, you will see that they are indeed “hooked.”
Ambivalent Love Addicts (ALAs suffer) from avoidant personality disorder—or what SLAA calls emotional anorexia. They don’t have a hard time letting go, they have a hard time moving forward. They desperately crave love, but at the same time they are terrified of intimacy. This combination is agonizing. ALAs come in different forms too. They are listed below.
Torch Bearers are ALAs who obsess about someone who is unavailable. This can be done without acting out (suffering in silence) or by pursuing the person they are in love with. Some torch bearers are more addicted than others. This kind of addiction feeds on fantasies and illusions. It is also known as unrequited love.
Saboteurs are ALAs who destroy relationships when they start to get serious or at whatever point their fear of intimacy comes up. This can be anytime—before the first date, after the first date, after sex, after the subject of commitment comes up—whenever.
Seductive Withholders are ALAs who always come on to you when they want sex or companionship. When they become frightened, or feel unsafe, they begin withholding companionship, sex, affection—anything that makes them feel anxious. If they leave the relationship when they become frightened, they are just Saboteurs. If they keep repeating the pattern of being available/unavailable, they are seductive withholders.
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To many people, the term "Seductive Withholder" is self-explanatory. SW’s are men and women who vacillate between being available and unavailable. One moment they are romantic, alluring, in pursuit and then suddenly (often without warning) they pull back and withhold affection, sex, and/or companionship. SW’s can drive you nuts.
I place SW’s into two categories. First you have the Narcissistic SW’s who enjoy toying with others because it gives them a "high." Some narcissists feel remorse and continue doing this anyway, but most lack any kind of compassion for those they seduce and then abandon. An analysis of the narcissistic personality is beyond my area of expertise, but I do know it is a personality disorder rooted in childhood trauma. Unfortunately, treatment for this disorder is very ineffective. Narcissists don’t get better because they don’t get treatment. They have illusions of grandeur and don’t think they need help. If they do get into therapy they drop out quickly because their grandiosity is all that keeps them from falling apart. It is best to just stay away from narcissists, especially narcissistic SW’s.
The second kind of SW is the man or woman whose ambivalence is fear based. These people feel safe when they are alone and uncommitted. Then they get lonely and start dreaming about being in a relationship. Next they start looking around for companionship (and sex) and go into seductive mode when they meet someone they are attracted to. As the relationship progresses, they become frightened and pull back. Anything can trigger their anxiety. Intimacy and commitment are the two most common triggers.
There is hope for this kind of SW. With therapy and a few good books about relationships, they can carefully choose the right person (someone who is independent and self-sufficient) and then stick with the relationship even if their fear comes up. SW’s cannot do this alone. They have to first get treatment for being attracted to the "wrong" type of person (a common problem for SW’s. Then, when they learn who they should be looking for (and they find this person), they need a lot of help bolstering their resolve to stay committed.
Some SW only seduce and withhold once; then they move on. Others engage in this dance with the same person over and over again. The more codependent the victim of a SW, the longer this will go on because codependents are have a high tolerance for suffering in relationships and tend to hold on despite all obstacles. See my book Addiction to Love for more about codependency.
What do you do if you are a SW? Get help and CHANGE. If you are attracted to SW’S, or have a history of getting involved with them (by accident) please read about this and get some help. As I say in my book, The Art of Changing, this involves both therapy and support groups. |
Romance Addicts are ALA who are addicted to multiple partners. Unlike sex addicts, who are trying to avoid bonding altogether, romance addicts bond with each of their partners—to one degree or another— even if the romantic liaisons are short-lived or happening simultaneously. By “romance” I mean sexual passion and pseudo emotional intimacy. Please note that while romance addicts bond with each of their partners to a degree, their goal (besides getting high off of romance and drama) is to avoid commitment or bonding on a deeper level with one partner. Often romance addicts are confused with sex addicts.
A Note about ALAs: Not all avoidants are love addicts. If you accept your fear of intimacy and social situations, and do not get hooked on unavailable people, or just keep your social circle small and unthreatening you are not necessarily an ALA. But if you eat your heart out over some unavailable person year after year, or sabotage one relationship after another, or have serial romantic affairs, or only feel close when you are with another avoidant, you may be an Ambivalent Love Addict.
Combinations: You may find that you have more than one type of love addiction. Many of these types overlap and combine themselves with other behavioral problems. For instance, you may be a codependent, alcoholic love addict. Or a love/relationship addict. The important thing is to identify your own personal profile so you know what you are dealing with.
Switch-hitting: Many love addicts switch-hit because they have more than one underlying personality disorder. For instance, a relationship addict may play the role of a codependent for years, then finally get out of the relationship and fall in love with someone who is unavailable. Suddenly, our relationship addict is an obsessed love addict or a torchbearer. Even narcissists switch-hit—believe it or not. For years they be in one relationship after another playing the role of the dominant, uncaring partner. However, if they ever fall hard, they can easily turn into a torchbearer or obsessed love addict. If they fall in love with another narcissist then they have no choice but to become the codependent love addict in the relationship because the narcissist will not stand for anything else. Even ambivalent love addicts will start obsessing instead of running away when they are addicted.
Love addicts switch-hit because of separation anxiety. If another form of behavior is necessary to placate a partner and to hold on the him or her, the love addict will adopt that behavior. Is it an act? Sometimes . . . but if the love addict has weak personality boundaries, they may actually become the other person while under the spell of the addiction.. The point here is not to identify all the kinds of switch-hitting going on, or to even explain it, but o point it out and learn from it.
Conclusion
The Importance of All This: If all this seems complicated, it is. And, to be honest, the only reason it is important is because it makes a difference when it comes to treatment. Codependent love addicts, for instance, need a boost in self-esteem and self-acceptance. They must learn to think better of themselves. Narcissistic love addicts, on the other hand, use grandiosity to bolster their low self-esteem and need to come down to earth. They need to learn some humility and how to become “unselfish.” Ambivalent Love Addicts need to find a healthy relationship and stay engaged in it even when their fear threatens to overwhelm them. Most of all, understanding as much as you can about love addiction will form the basis of your Fourth Step Inventory in a 12-Step Program or give you a head start if you opt for psychotherapy.
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| Topic: Emotional Abuse - The Rearranging of One‘s Mind
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| Subject: Emotional Abuse - The Rearranging of One‘s Mind - Posted: 6/7/2007 8:19:09 AM
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DEEDEE
"So if I end up dead or disappeared you know it was him."
This is one of the scariest post I have EVER read! I am so worried about you and I don‘t even know you.
PLEASE...let us know you are OK!
Touche Baby is RIGHT...
YOU HAVE PROOF that he is threatening to KILL YOU.
TAKE IT TO THE POLICE AGAIN!
He will NOT get custody of your son..he doesn‘t EVEN WANT HIM...It is a ploy! If he is on the road all the time...how can he get custody?
If he is documented as ABUSIVE, how can he get custody..
He is MANIPULATING you with FEAR...and has NO OTHER POWER over you than that.
Get a RESTRAINING ORDER NOW!
You are NOT STUPID!!!!!! YOU go back because you are conditioned by this.
Please read this for your own sake and the sake of your son.
http://groups.msn.com/WebofNarcissism/traumabond.msnw
I know it might sound ridiculous to you at this point, considering the postion you find yourself.But i wanted to give you a CHANCE to break FREE with KNOWLEDGE.
Because i can‘t come to your house and PICK YOU UP and take you someplace safe!
Here is a Book that will help explain WHY you keep going back.Maybe it will open your eyes and FORCE you to change and NEVER GO BACK!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=550895
I offer it to you with the HOPES that you understand...This is NOT YOUR FAULT.
You are a virtual prisoner of war in your own home.
But no one is coming to rescue you.
You have to rescue yourself..NOW!
If you can, order this book before it is too late.And read it and learn why you are reacting to this man/situation this way...and PLEASE KNOW... he is treating you this way because Your husband sounds like a PSYCHOPATH...seriously!
And as I am SURE you realize...this man is NOT someone to take lightly!
Drop everything but your son and RUN!
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOConnor/428/428lect16.htm
I wish you peace and FREEDOM!
Ramble On
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| Topic: lovefraud.com
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| Subject: lovefraud.com - Posted: 6/7/2007 11:02:24 AM
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Nope...that‘s not me.
Ramble On
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| Topic: help?
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| Subject: help? - Posted: 6/8/2007 4:08:34 AM
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Is there anyone in your life that could help you get to a safe place until School starts up again?
How about your parents?
If your father is in your life, i am SURE he would be HAPPY to come down and let this man know EXACTLY what he thinks about his abusiveness.
Have you told them yet?
If not why are you PROTECTING HIM over yourself?
If you think that this man is going to all of a sudden STOP mistreating you, you are wrong.It really only get‘s worse.
And what he is doing to you is called Intermittant Positive Reinforcement and it is a "trick of the abusers trade".Over time...those "nice" periods get less and less.
I think you know that. And i know how hard it is to "give up " on someone you think you love. But if you don‘t, you will only be giving up on YOUR FUTURE HAPPINESS!
The truth is..the longer you stay and forgive him the more control he gains over your life and the less likely you will have enough self worth to escape later.
http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/vic.htm
Please...call your parents and ask them if you can COME HOME RIGHT NOW!
Have them pick you up and cut ALL TIES with this man.He may seem PITIFUL to you and make you feel GUILTY for leaving him, but HE FORCED YOUR HAND!
Remember THAT!
He is not a healthy or safe person to love.
That is NOT your fault.And NOTHING you DO Can or WILL change him.
Ramble On.
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| Topic: lovefraud.com
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| Subject: lovefraud.com - Posted: 6/8/2007 4:44:56 AM
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Thank you Shally...
I never thought I‘d be a Victims Advocate in the midst of my own abuse.I felt helpless and powerless and worthless thanks to ONE TOO MANY lowly men..but i am at the point that i just can‘t STOMACH the pain men cause women, and can all too well remember ALL of the looks in my abusers eyes, all of the spits in my face, the control through belittling, the ANGER and HATERED i hve witnessed in the hearts of men i have known and I want NOTHING more than to WARN, HELP,INFORM,EMPOWER, and give hope to anyone willing to help themselves.
I feel like i am in some sort of "Underground" railroad sometimes, knowing MUCH TOO MUCH about the underbelly of our society.And it does SCARE me...but if we don‘t FIGHT BACK...even with covert support for eachother....they will win.
I can‘t let that happen to women who want NOTHING BUT LOVE, CARE, RESPECT and to LOVE BACK~!
WE ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT ASSET MEN COULD EVER HURT.
WE ARE THE EMOTIONAL BACK BONE OF LIFE.
WE are THE childbearers, the nurturers, the emotional connection between everything that is and was...and if THESE MEN think that they are going to OVERRULE us with violence, humilation, or control..
THEY CAN THINK AGAIN!
NOT ON MY WATCH! DAMN IT!
Ramble On
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| Topic: The Unreported Epidemic
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| Subject: The Unreported Epidemic - Posted: 6/8/2007 5:32:18 AM
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| Topic: The Unreported Epidemic
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| Subject: The Unreported Epidemic - Posted: 6/9/2007 5:12:29 AM
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DeeDee...
You are right...it is a SHAME that it is so hard to convince people of what WE ALREADY KNOW...
But i have to add, all those justifiable REASONS Victims stay with thier abusers does NOT justify giving up on ourselves and tolerating any amount of abuse from anyone..least of all our husbands.
I kicked mine out while i had 3 children.MY last daughter was 7 months old when i gave him the BOOT! He missed out on alot of her life because of HIS OWN ACTIONS and i feel NO GUILT about that.I was DONE with his shit.It was HARD.VERY HARD.And scary to make a stand when i was SO used to it all.IN the end..it woke him UP to the reality that i was NOT willing to tolerate his abuses ANYMORE.
He knows today that if he DARES raise his voice at me, swer at me or spit in my face he is GONE!
It took me a FULL year separated and alone with 3 kids and NO money coming in from him, to CHANGE his attitude towards me.
I gave him ONE LAST CHANCE.
We are still together today.But had I NOT TAKEN A STAND, SEEN CONSISTANT CHANGE and honored my OWN boundaries of acceptable behavior, WE WOULD BE DIVORCED today.
NO DOUBT in my mind.
So do yourself a favor...you NOT let those reasons deter you from seeking your RIGHTS as a WIFE to be treated with LOVE, CARE AND RESPECT.
If you do, you will only be kicing yourself in the ass for not leaving sooner.
Ramble on.
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| Topic: We should feel sorry for them instead
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| Subject: We should feel sorry for them instead - Posted: 6/9/2007 5:34:03 AM
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Add this excuse to the list...
While my husband claims to never have cheated, his attitude speaks VOLUMES.
"If it weren‘t for WOMEN and thier expectations of MORAL Behavior, we men would be screwing anything with a pulse."
Or how about this one.
I did it because i WANTED TO.It‘s none of her(his wifes) BUSINESS what I do.I feel NO guilt, shame or care.
She is a BORE in bed.
And afterall....I‘m JUST A MAN.But, when i got married, i PROMISED myself that i wouldn‘t CARE about who i used to get my rocks off outside of my marriage.As long as I PLAY THE GAME...I can do whatever I want to behind thier backs.Pit them against eachother and make myself feel like a REAL MAN because i have not one but 2 women STRUNG ALONG with my lies.
Oh and this was a good one...If I could BLOW myself...i wouldn‘t NEED a wife or an OW.
NICE FREAKIN‘ MOTTO!!!!!
Good luck with THAT Asshole!
I equate this attitude to anti-socialism.Entitlement and outright SELFISHNESS.
I think the main difference lies within the individuals definition of MORALITY.
No one can FORCE thier morality on anyone else.Least of all an Anti-Social.
They have thier own agendas.
And BOTH women are merely PAWNS in thier selfish games.
Until they get CAUGHT that is.
I wonder what men would do if both parties (ow‘s and wives)rejected them.
Probably get some ribs removed.
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| Topic: We should feel sorry for them instead
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| Subject: We should feel sorry for them instead - Posted: 6/9/2007 9:28:59 AM
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Just so I know I made my point clear...I thought I‘d add something.
"the same excuse that has actually made me pity them."
This might sound a bit serious...but...
They don‘t DESERVE our pity.Some of them intentionally seek it and USE it to thier advantage.Woman are suckers because we always think...
OH POOR GUY...I can save him...With my LOVE,CARE AND SYMPATHY! LMAO!!!!! While he rakes me over the coals with my EMPATHY! Trust. Love. And CARE.
Wake up and smell the ANTI -SOCIALS!
There are 1 in 25 people who walk around with NO CONSCIENCE.
Should we pity that?
About as much as THEY PITY US!
http://www.lovefraud.com/02_howToSpotAcon/the_pity_play.htmlTip-off
trait of a sociopath
Look for the pity play
http://www.lovefraud.com/12_leavingAsociopath/sociopath_no_contact.html
Save your pity for thier Victims....and I am talking about both parties.
And don‘t automatically asume that married men who cheat are not Sociopaths at "heart".Alot of them have much deeper issues than low self esteem and ego issues or that they" Just want to know they still can".
CAN WHAT?
Play games that Hurt women?
Lie to people with ease?
Take things they don‘t even have coming and act entitled to them?
Forget they have emotional obligations to thier spouses?
Pretend they are studs when in reality, they can‘t keep ONE woman happy, let alone two, or more.
Do they need to SEE if the damn thing works on others to fulfill the VOIDS they have inside of themselves toPROVE they are still men?
It is all bullshit.
I feel NO Pity
.Especially when they start things they have no intention of commiting to, with anyone.
Have you ever been cheated on?
Or used by a cheater?
Or are you simply drawing conclusions based on OTHER peoples situations?
There is a big difference.
Pity should always be reserved for the DESERVING.
And i doubt that a mans Dick being "out of his control" would be considered deserving.
Boy...don‘t I sound like a man hating Dyke...lol
Maybe I am.
Ramble On
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| Topic: Adult Aspergers
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| Subject: Adult Aspergers - Posted: 6/19/2007 6:21:38 AM
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Check out these sites....It might give you some insight.I have found in researching Narcissism, that there is a HUGE correlation between Reactive Attachment Disorder Symptoms and most of the Anti-Social Disorders in Adults.
I think Genetics are the GUN....and Environment becomes the Trigger.
Without HEALTHY BONDING in childhood to FUNCTIONAL Parents there is NO way for these people to do anything but survive on thier Defense Mechanisms and hurt others in the process with thier INABILITY to FEEL, thanks to thier LACK OF EMPATHY, LACK OF A developed Conscience and lack of learned Social Skills.There are many many social problems that develop during the first years of life and most often, the people effected are not at fault for how they are.They just are. And unfortunately, they have serious adverse effects of EVERYONE around them and see nothing wrong with themselves to the point that they SEEK HELP and try to change...
I doubt that there is any way for ANYONE as an adult to all of a sudden develop a conscience or morality when they have had minimal if any Positive, nurturing or bonding ATTACHMENT to others in thier childhood.
We can NOT re-raise Socially Dysfunctional Adults.
All we can do is try to READ the RED FLAGS and RUN.
And feel sympathy from a DISTANCE!
http://www.radkid.org/signs_and_symptoms.html
Children with RAD may become adults diagnosed with sociopathic, narcissistic, antisocial, or borderline disorder
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
[For general discussion of cognition, affectivity, interpersonal functioning, and impulse control in personality disorders and NPD. It‘s also interesting to compare these traits below with characteristics of normal six-year-olds.]
http://www.psychnet-uk.com/dsm_iv/attachment_disorder.htm
http://attachmenttherapy.com/adult.htm
http://attachmenttherapy.com/ad.htm
http://www.attachmentdisorder.net/Adult_Attachment_Problems.htm
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-attachment-disorder.htm
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-sociopath.htm
http://www.attachmentexperts.com/adultcouple.html
http://www.personalityresearch.org/papers/wood.html
http://www.soulwork.net/sw_articles_eng/personality.htm
I hope this helps you see that no matter WHAT your husbands issues are, he really had no real chance at a normal life.
Some people just can‘t be a productive part of society, let alone engage in emotional obligations to others.
It isn‘t in thier genetic or environmental make up.
Ramble On
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| Topic: Adult Aspergers
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| Subject: Adult Aspergers - Posted: 6/19/2007 12:06:50 PM
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I‘m sorry, i don‘t know you story...so i am going to generalize here...hope you dont‘ mind...maybe you will get something from my hard won "WISDUM"...
If you think about it...the harm people cause us is usually due to them and thier limitations, some are just alot more serious than others....and WE take it personally.How we react is a big part of the problem..If we looked them in the eye at the FIRST Boundary Violation,Lie, betrayal, abusive word or action, and said..GET THE FUCK OUTTA MY LIFE RIGHT NOW..they would NOT have ANY chance to hurt us after that..And we wouldn‘t have to waste our time hating them for years to come...
...The thing is....If he was with someone else, he would most likely do the same thing.to them.You know the saying.."What they do to them , they‘ll do to you..that means..it is a PATTERN of behavior and YOU have nothing do do with THIER PATTERN...Only YOUR reactions are under your control...right?
.Sometimes I think our OWN already lowered self esteem makes us FEEL so worthless that we actually BELIEVE what they say about us, so they can KEEP us around to abuse to build themselves up...because THEIR self esteem is so damn low...And that is really easy to do considering THEY seem to be HURTING us intentionally because we aren‘t good enough for them to TREAT with any amount of care or respect.
But some men are just plain Misogynists.They hate women for one reason or another.And some women seek out emotionally unavailable men without even knowing it or why...and then sit there saying...WHAT AN ASSHOLE...as if they had hoped that thier LOVE could or would open them up...LMAO!
Never gonna happen.
They hate mommy..and defy thier relationships in an attempt to GET EVEN with the pain they were caused by women from thier own pasts...it is a VISCIOUS CYCLE.
Your hate may stem from.being angry at yourself for tolerating any amount of abuse in the name of love..that is where mine stemmed from for a long time..I thought...
I am TREATING an asshole with RESPECT, CARE, and LOVE he doesn‘t EVEN freakin deserve..WHAT is MY PROBLEM~!
Have you tried to understand forgiveness for you both as a REMEDY for YOUR emotional well being?
It is the ONLY way to say goodbye to HATE.
I doubt that knowing a NAME for how he treated you would change much...What he did to hurt you, it lives in your emotional memories and that is a GOOD THING..As hopefully, it will remind you that some men are emotionally dangerous and to AVOID them in the future...HEALTHY FEAR is a GOOD THING...As is healthy anger... It still lingers in your memory and you just cant‘ FATHOM how people can be so HEARTLESS...and it SEEMS that he felt nothing while he was doing it...
it really had very little to do with YOU....remember that.
Hate the sin...love the sinner...
My main point in leaving all those sites was to say...
We are all hurt in one way as a children...and part of the reason we do what we do and end UP with the people we do is because of that conditioned response.
We have ours...they have thiers...and usually...
They tend to collide.
The healthier WE are the more we ATTRACT healthy men.
Ramble On
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| Topic: Adult Aspergers
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| Subject: Adult Aspergers - Posted: 6/20/2007 5:31:07 AM
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Susan....
Now that i know a bit more about your situation...i can honestly say...I GET IT...IT SUCKS to be taken advantage of!!!!!!!ESPECIALLY when you are KIND and men USE your ability to CARE against you.
I agree with all you say. I do hate myself for letting him do the things he did.
FORGIVE YOURSELF for Trusting him. You really did NOTHING wrong here!Some people USE PITY PLOYS to control us.That is the BEST way for them to get us while we are VULNERABLE.This man sounds as If he had some serious HIDDEN AGENDAS and there was very little you could do to AVOID getting hurt.It is so hard to comprehend people who seem to have NO conscience though, isn‘t it?It feels like WE are the SUCKERS and they just Protected themselves better.BULLSHIT on THEM...They LIE deny omit and play us hard and walk away UNSCATHED...in the short run..they seem to WIN...but you know what?
NO ONE get‘s away with what they do to hurt others.NO ONE.
There will come a day, and you may NEVER see JUSTICE served, but mark my words...The UNIVERSE SEE‘s ALL!
For every negative action, there IS a negative reaction in all of our lives.
I felt sorry for him and allowed him to get away with more than i normally would.
So now...you just need to learn to STOP trying to rscue others over yourself. Learn to READ the signs sooner, if possible and keep evolving into a STRONGER and more aware woman so you dont‘ get of FEEL taken by anyone again.
This was a HARD WON Lesson...That is what life is about..making mistakes and learning from them..And forgiving your own Misinformed choices and judgements so that the pain doesnt‘ define your being.
Be Gentle with yourself...HOW COULD YOU HAVE KNOWN?
Im sure he knew exactly that so he used it.
Of course he did...some men TARGET kind, caring NURTURING women as a HOBBY..and BOY, are they HARD to SPOT when you are overly empathetic..I ALWAYS have projected MY OWN trustworthiness onto others and BEEN SCREWED OVER thanks to it.
I was doing really good but lately i have been a little down again.
You will find your way out of the HUMILATION he put you through..But it does feel like a scare that will never heal sometimes...I know...I have felt tainted by my past for a long time...but I try every day to COUNT My BLESSINGS...
He is GONE NOW...you are OUT of this abusive situation.That is a START!
I think that its all the immigration stuff on the news everyday thats triggering it. He was from ireland and besides the emotional abuse he married me out of convenience as he put it after i told him to leave for being an abusive bastard.
He was being DEFENSIVE because you abandoned him.He wanted to hurt you for hurting him..That is human nature when you are unevolved.He may have at one point actually CARED about you...don‘t doubt that...he just didn‘t have the capability to express it. And i am sure you are not the first woman he has hurt with his limitations.
Got to love uncle sam to allow these men to stay in our country and continue working while the come here illegally and con us into thinking they love us so they can get a green card.
Confidence Artists live amongst us in DROVES! Spotting them and protecting ourselves is OUR personal responsibility,but that isnt‘ always avoidable.And when we don‘t it feels like our own fault...It really isn‘t though..all we can do is deal witht he aftermath most of the time.
If i was the govt and the first sign of that i would deport there ass back to where they came from. Of course they are mostly men and they take there side. I told INS he was abusive and used me for a greencard and guess what he is stll here.
THAT MUST SUCK! They TIE our hands and then expect us to ADJUST...Well...sometimes...that is easier said than done.
By the way anyone from massachusetts who reads this on craigslist dont hire mercury plastering or Irish plastering crew because he is an abusive prick and doesnt deserve to be here or get work for that matter.
I moved from Ma. 3 years ago.to ESCAPE the lies and denial and exploitation of a Married Narcissist...i was Professionally Exploited by my massage therapist, used for sex, money and protection,and left holding the ENTIRE BAG in my own marriage..Yes..I outted myself voluntarily thinking it was an affair long before i allowed myself to TRUST HIM enough to let him pat my boundaries..He was conning me the whole time...making me THINK i was special..just to USE ME UP and discard me....Come to find out years later..I could have had his Massage License RIpped from his dirty fingers...But I felt to BLAME for not stopping him from USING ME..and hurting me..I never got even.never outted him,..never sought justice and never felt at all vindicated...I was silenced by fear...so I do know that of which you speak...
I am letting the Universe take care of HIM for me...
But I do find it HARSH that men SEEM to get away with emotional MURDER of women...and know how hard it is to feel as if your VOICE has been stolen.
I am sorry that you feel so angry and used still..and that you sometimes blame yourself...Just know..You are FAR from alone...Also know...the longer you hang onto the HATE you are justified in feeling, the longer he controls your unhappiness.
HE IS FAR from worthy of that!
Just keep reminding yourself..
In taking revenge, a man is but even with his enemy; but in passing it over, he is superior.
Sir Francis Bacon (1561 - 1626)
Be the bigger person and let it go..For your own sake...
We don‘t have to control everything to feel Justice has been served.
Conquer the angry man by love.
Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness.
Conquer the miser with generosity.
Conquer the liar with truth.
The Dhammapada
Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.
Unknown source
Go deeper...that is where the TRUTH lies.
Ramble On
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| Topic: A Mess
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| Subject: A Mess - Posted: 6/20/2007 8:59:01 AM
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Not everyone is AS they SEEM....And "Charm" is not the same as Sincerity.Don‘t look PAST the RED FLAGS....you will be sorry!
http://www.lovefraud.com/02_howToSpotAcon/spot_con_artist.html
http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/key_symptoms_sociopath.html
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| Topic: Sandra has left the "building"
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| Subject: Sandra has left the "building" - Posted: 6/21/2007 6:10:09 AM
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NEVER MIND.
I realized...i don‘t need to wait this long for validation for my theory.
But others might.
Ramble On
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| Topic: Question To Sandra about Re-enactment
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| Subject: Question To Sandra about Re-enactment - Posted: 7/11/2007 5:45:37 AM
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Sandra???????
I am wondering why you have not responded to my inquiry in over 3 weeks.I know you are busy dealing with your own life, your private practice, I assume and your Survey regarding Victims of Psychopaths...but I find it unfair of you to offer your expertice to WomanSavers and not make yourself available to us.No matter what the reasons.
I think at this point I will just recind my question.
I already know that thanks to my past...i have been EASY PREY to being exploited by Sociopaths.
I was just looking for a Professional opinion on the "Sitting Duck Syndrome" women find themselve‘s a victim to due to childhood sexual abuse,being raised by alcoholics and and being abandoned by both parents as a 3 year old.
At least 85 other people took the time to read my post...
I think you should either join us, or ask WomanSavers to take your section off the boards, in all fairness to the people who THINK they can get some professional advice from you, but don‘t.
RambleOn
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| Topic: LOVEFRAUD
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| Subject: LOVEFRAUD - Posted: 7/11/2007 8:40:53 AM
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lovefraud Blog
Wake up to the danger of sociopaths July 11, 2007
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
New blog posts
-- Letters to Lovefraud: This is not love, but poison
-- Letters to Lovefraud: Sociopaths can fool anyone
-- Sociopaths, psychopaths--just call them evil
-- Are they just evil people?
-- Ask Dr. Leedom: Am I also a sociopath?
-- Make your truth your reality after the sociopath is gone
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Letters to Lovefraud: This is not love, but poison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There‘s a new feature in the Lovefraud Blog called "Letters to Lovefraud." Lovefraud receives many extraordinary e-mails from readers. Now, more e-mails will be shared with you, with the permission of the authors, of course.
In her letter, Teri says, "I am writing this as a friendly reminder to myself because I seem to have a hard time remembering the lies and deception." She then tells her story, and asks her friend, Linda, to tell what she remembers of the chaotic relationship.
Read Letters to Lovefraud: This is not love, but poison |
Letters to Lovefraud: Sociopaths can fool anyone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A banking attorney, who formerly conducted criminal bank fraud investigations, tells how he got involved with a sociopath without realizing it.
Read Letters to Lovefraud: Sociopaths can fool anyone |
Sociopaths, psychopaths--just call them evil
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Donna Andersen writes that while professionals disagree about how personality disorders should be defined and what causes them, what the rest of us need to know is this: There are evil people among us.
But often it is the professionals, including legal professionals, who are making the decisions about sociopaths and psychopaths. Andersen states the three points she believes the professionals need to learn.
Read Sociopaths, psychopaths--just call them evil |
Are they just evil people?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Liane Leedom asks the question: Do evil people share certain personality characteristics? She then discusses research that identifies 12 traits that constitute the core elements of psychopathy. The traits correspond with Dr. Leedom‘s Inner Triangle.
What we should do, Dr. Leedom says, is surround ourselves with people who have a well-developed Inner Triangle.
Read Are they just evil people? |
Ask Dr. Leedom: Am I also a sociopath?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The psychological warfare with a sociopath can leave you with many self doubts. After listening to all the accusations, you might ask, "Am I also a sociopath?"
Dr. Leedom‘s preliminary research indicates that extroverted people are attracted to other extroverted people. Sociopaths are certainly extroverted, and may therefore seem attractive. What they lack, however, is the ability to love.
Read Ask Dr. Leedom: Am I also a sociopath? |
Make your truth your reality after the sociopath is gone
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ M. L. Gallagher writes that while she was blinded by the sociopath, she couldn‘t see what she would gain by leaving him. When he was arrested, she had to choose to grow or die.
She committed to be free of the past. Now her frame of mind is Be, Do, Have and Give Back.
Read Make your truth your reality after the sociopath is gone |
Contact Information
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
phone: 609-945-1384
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| Topic: Well...shut my mouth
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| Subject: Well...shut my mouth - Posted: 7/18/2007 4:53:09 AM
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4 MONTHS?
WOW!
But..lookie here...she‘s back!
Funny thing...i was very hesitant to say anything....but it looks as if it might have helped this forum and the people who NEEDED her out!
I am PROUD of myself right now..for having the BALLS to tell it like it was...
I once had a therapist leave me hanging BIG TIME, after giving me the WORST advice of my life...I ran into her one day and told her how I felt about her lack of Professionalism....and how it had effected my life in such an adverse way...i was STRUGGLING to fix the damage SHE had done to my life....and you know what...THIS TRIGGERED that and reminded me..
I don‘t NEED to be afraid of Authority figures!
I have EVERY right to speak my peace...and sometimes..it actually EFFECTS peoples Consciences!
All i can say is..SCREW LEARNED HELPLESSNESS!
Hello EMPOWERMENT!
Nice to have you back Sandra Brown
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| Topic: Sitting Duck Syndrome
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| Subject: Sitting Duck Syndrome - Posted: 7/18/2007 5:32:24 AM
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I asked....and I know how and why we keep finding ourselves victimized.Not to mention...WHY victimizers victimize us!
Histories of Sexual, emotional and physical abuse.
Conditioned responses to abuse.
Attraction to emotionally unavailable men.(Abandoholism)
Love addiction/Codependency
Betrayal bonding.(Trama Bonding) Patrick Carnes
Subconscious re-enactment of previous abuses.
"Unfinished business" from our childhoods plagues us all...abusers and victims.
Lacking in healthy boundries, self esteem and self respect
Attempts at regaining control and power we LOST thanks to our pasts.
Unhealthy Narcissism.
Learned Helplessness.
Reactive Attachment disorders, Commitment Phobias,and Abandonment issues
Not to mention the ENTIRE GAMET of ANTI-Social Characteristics.
I have done my homework over the years trying to figure out..whoich came first..the "chicken(abuser) or the egg(victim)!
The thing is...LOVE is a RISK.And all the more so when you stop and take a long look at the statistics and characteristics of abusers.
I think that THEY LEAVE US responsibile for THIER ABUSES!
And I also realize...if NOT for abusers...this world would NOT be filled with Victims of ANY kind.It is a viscious cycle and both men and women find themselves a part of the "sitting duck syndrome" either as victimizers or victims.
My problem with taking personal responsibility with my own issues is that for one..I DID NOT CAUSE THEM...and for two.....WE CAN NOT SEE A SOCIOPATH/Narcissist COMING to save ourselves.If a dysfunctional man is LYING to us...how can we even consider holding ourselves accountable for THIER DECEPTION? Thier dysfunctions? Thier intentional betrayals.Thier NEED to recover POWER lost from thier own dysfunctional childhoods through thier MYSOGINY?
It is usually in HINDSIGHT that we realize...we were Conned.Betrayed. Dupped and Used by someone who TARGETED our vulnerabilities thanks to the fact that THEY do NOT possess Emotional Obligations to others...and TARGET us for our vulnerabilites,our ability to TRUST and our need for LOVE.
SHAME ON THEM!
NOT US!
Am I STILL responsibile for being abused under those circumstances?
If there are 1 in 25 sociopaths who live amongst us, without Conscience,empathy or morality of ANY KIND....how are we supposed to PROTECT ourselves?
I know there are MANY MANY victims out there who do NOT have a sitting duck syndrome who are DESPITE thier emotional intelligence,healthy boundaries and healthy self esteem..are.TARGETED VICTIMS.
To a certain degree...asking a victim to CHANGE is tantimount to revictimizing the victim.
I NEVER asked to be abused ONCE in my lifetime.I never consciously said...HELL....i am a masochist..USE ME UP.
HELL NO! I said..LOVE ME, LET ME TRUST SOMEONE ON THIS PLANET WITH MYSELF..PLEASE DON"T HURT ME and guess what?
They always began with a FASCADE I fell for.The good guy image is what a CON USES to get us to fall prey.
WHY SHOULD WE TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR CHANGE WHEN THERE WILL ALWAYS BE VICTIMIZERS OUT THERE ATTEMPTING TO HURT US WITH THIER PROJECTED DYSFUNCTIONS?
Even the man who willfully victimized me said...IT‘S NOT YOU..IT‘S ME.
No truer words came from his mouth.
Do you honestly believe that we, as "sitting ducks" can break cycles that are so engrained in our subconscious that we can DEFEAT abusers BEFORE we are victimized?Do WE need to Stop the cycles FOR THEM?
If thier GOAL is to get EVEN with thier abusive,neglectful or abandoning mothers through us?
I see the entire thing as relatively futile.
There will ALWAYS be abusers and abused people.
Until the COLLECTIVE CONSCIENCE and CHARACTER of the world changes.
"Evil" will ALWAYS harm vulnerable.Until we change the "EVIL" men do.
But in the MEAN TIME...we as WOMEN MUST PROTECT OURSELVES FROM THEM.And as USUAL...abusers LEAVE us with the burden of protecting ourselves FROM THEM.
SO BE IT.
My vulnerabilites are DUE to abusive men from my childhood...but I guess..it is PAR FOR THE COURSE that I am left with THIER inability and unwillingness to BE PERSONALLY ACCOUNTABLE for thier abuses.
Do I sound pissed? HELL YEAH...I am.!
I am SICK of MEN HURTING WOMEN AND WOMEN BEING LEFT WITH THE BURDEN OF CHANGE!
WHY NOT EXCPECT MEN TO STOP ABUSING US!
Ramble on.
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| Topic: Sitting Duck Syndrome
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| Subject: Sitting Duck Syndrome - Posted: 7/19/2007 5:23:25 AM
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Sandra...
I first wanted to say..OF COURSE..i am far from upset with you.I was venting some long over due facts and feelings after YEARS of self analysis and study of Human Pathologies that Adversely effected my life.
THANK you for your thoughful and thorough response.You truly GET what I am saying.YES..it is TRULY about INJUSTICE for the VICTIM!And I also know...INTIMATE Knowledge about myself and pathologies of others might have helped protect me before..not after.
But without having been burned...i might NEVER have met myself.
The aftermath has taught me MORE than I EVER wanted to know about HUMAN NATURE and NURTURE issues.People frighten me in general as I now KNOW that look of sincerity in a persons eye‘s...may just be FAKE.
I will take your ‘test‘ regarding MY traits as I am willing to help myself be safer...but I know...sometimes...that is just not possible.And I will NOT take personal responsibility for the people who abused me in life...only my reactions to them.I usually reacted with kindness,forgiveness and sympathy...but with SOME people...that is merely thier "ticket" to take all the MORE advantage of me.Little did I know.
I would be LAUGHED at when I asked..."PLEASE...HAVE A HEART."
So the WORST part is...they in some ways..make us like them.Distrusting.FEARFUL, and overly controlling.
It may be easier said than done for the average layperson to gather ALL the information, Red Flags and warnings of ALL of the different types of pathological personality disorders...and remember them all as we are living from our own wounded hearts...but It seems that is ALL WE HAVE to protect ourselves at this point, because there is NO WAY to "Breed Out" the genetically predisposed elements of abusers.There is really very little hope in changing this in our society due to the cycles of abuse that HAUNT our fabric.
I think you took on a MAJOR PROJECT....and wish you much luck with imposing CHANGE when only ONE SIDE can actually HEAR YOU...and I don‘t mean to pathological side!
As I know...trying to effect the ineffectual was the most frustrating and FUTILE prospect i have EVER encountered.
I read something once that sort of made me laugh...It was in regards to Passive Aggressives/commitmentphobics ec...effecting them is like, "TRYING TO NAIL JELLO TO A WALL..."
IMPOSSIBLE.
I don‘t "mind" being "blamed for my part...as LONG as if I change...I can have some sort of GUARANTEE that i will NOT be harmed again in my futuse as I am TIRED and WORN OUT and DONE WITH PAIN!Healing and RECOVERY...I JUST WANT TO HAVE A PEACEFUL HAPPY PRODUCTIVE LIFE and LOVE MY AUTHENTIC SELF despite my flaws.
I was BORN INNOCENT,LOVEABLE AND WORTHY and have been long beaten down from that pedastal of ENTITLEMENT to a HAPPY LIFE!
Thanks to abusers who saw me as EASY PREY due to my willingness to PROJECT my character,trust, love, care and emotional obligation onto them.
My bad.I thought I could TRUST in the kindness of strangers...GUESS AGAIN is all i can say.
It truly frightens me to imagine sending my daughters out into the world, knowing full well that unless i educate them FULLY...they may be just as easily targeted as I have been in my life.
How do you inform someone about the TRUTH without causing them to live a FEAR BASED life before they encounter a psychopath?
How can they actually BELIEVE it until they "see it"?
I just do NOT understand why WE as WOMEN must withstand this in our lives.We are nurturing ,men are destroying.
Maybe some day...peace and love will PREVAIL...but at this rate...it may take multiple generations..if ever, of cycle breaking, to get where we NEED to be as a MORAL society.
I am not holding my breath at this point.It seems to me to be a MASSIVE problem.
As for my children..
I am hoping they might have a better chance...the difference being...they are being raised completely opposite of me and my own abusive past.And they have me as an example of how NOT to react to abuse.
But I also know..that will NOT ENSURE thier SAFETY in the hands of an unknown SOCIOPATH.PSYCHOPATH OR NARCISSIST.
After I wrote you my rant...i ran out and bought...Dr.Robert Hare‘s book...WITHOUT CONSCIENCE.My next one is Patrick Carnes, Betrayal Bond, which i KNOW i had to my abusers.And I will TRY to come to terms with all the elements within EACH of the dynamics so i can hopefully find a way to RELAX in my life without feeling hyper vigilant towards dysfunctional humanity that LURKS around seemingly EVERY corner.
I may sound paranoid...but I KNOW based on facts...that I am not.
I am sure I will gain yet MORE insight and warnings to pass on to my children as long as I STAY AWARE of the problem.
I myself have chosen to isolate out of fear that due to my past...i can NOT help but find myself abused,despite my hard won wisdom.
And that makes me VERY SAD because I want to live in a world that ALL PEOPLE feel EMOTIONAL OBLIGATION TO OTHERS.
You know me....i am the women who was BANNED from SAM VAKNIN‘s NPD FORUMS for offering women the chance to be a part of your Victims of Psychopath Survey and who was Professionally Exploited by my Massage Therapist.Raped as a child and almost drowned by my own Narcissistic Mother...I have had a HARD LIFE...and it really hurts me to realize...I was the person who was SUPPOSED to protect myself from the unknown.
I am still here..FIGHTING my way back and bringing as many women I can reach, with me.
Thank you again for your HELP in these matters.
I SWEAR...without information and understanding...we are POWERLESS.
Sincerely...Ramble On
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| Topic: Sitting Duck Syndrome
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| Subject: Sitting Duck Syndrome - Posted: 7/19/2007 12:46:42 PM
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"Ramble, it sounds like you probably have PTSD (no surprise to you, eh?) but what it DOES instill in you is a fear of the future. And rightfully so. You have lived thru a bunch of abnormal life events".
Once abnormal becomes the NORM...life is twisted into another realm of curiosity.I do not feel that I have PTSD...not at this point.
But my need to feel safe, in an unsafe world, is important to me.
There is such a thing as HEALTHY fear...and I found out the difference between implicit trust in people when my ‘un"healthy boundaries where questioned, when my PROFESSIONAL BREACHED HIS ETHICS while i was in his "LACK" of Care.
Being exploited in a professional setting is about as bad as it get‘s.I deal with supporting women who have been sexually exploited by thier PSYCHO therapists, by pastors, by laywers, by doctors, by PROFESSIONALS who women paid to see with the hopes of GETTING HELP for thier issues, only to have been ABUSED in thier care.
WHY?
I think it is because if there are SO MANY PSYCHOPATHS out there passing themselves off as normal in romantic relationships..
HOW many do you think make in into postions of Authority and ABUSE victims in thier care?
I know too much, that is all.
And I am SICK to death of THIER issues being projected onto thier victims.I have done THAT to myself for decades..
I ASKED FOR IT I used to tell myself......B.S.
It would not matter in the LEAST to me or anyone with half a brain if I had issues before I entered a PROFESSIONALS OFFICE.Or a MARRIAGE or a causal encounter.
If he is "MORALLY INSANE"...He will make me and others his victim.
And I believe the same goes for any woman who finds herself betrayed by a con man.
yes..there are repetitive victimizations...ie:Sitting Ducks..
BUT WHO SHOOTS SITTING DUCKS!?????POWER JUNKIES andPSYCHOPATHS WITHOUT EMPATHY!
I can‘t find it in my heart to offer my experience with a psychopath because I can‘t see it as in any way..MY FAULT for my WEAK TRAITS.
Sorry.I have just opened my eyes a bit thanks to a place that GET‘s Professional Exploitation and who informed me...that all of my SHAME and blame was for NOT.
It would not matter if I went into that man‘s office and STIPPED in front of him and showed him ALL OF MY VULNERABILITES.
As a supposed professional...he SHOULD have proteced my WELL BEING...instead of EXPLOITING IT FOR HIS PERSONAL GAINS.
But that is just what psychopaths do...right?
And we should NOT react in anyway.
Ramble on.
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| Topic: Without Conscience
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| Subject: Without Conscience - Posted: 7/25/2007 5:28:13 AM
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If the picture does not appear..my apologies...here is the title of the book i HIGHY recommend to help understand WHY WHO AND HOW these people infiltrate our minds, our trust and our hearts, only to abuse us. |
Without Conscience
Available from Guilford Press
Translations of Without Conscience:
Dutch
Finnish
German
Hungarian
Indonesian
Japanese
Korean
Norwegian
Polish
Russian
Spanish
Swedish
Turkish
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Dr. Robert Hare...Without Conscience---The Distrubing World of the Psychopaths Amongst us.
While not all abusers are Psychopaths,all Psychopaths are abusers.
We may think they are the WORST of the WORST...but after reading this book and understanding they dynamics and the mindset of these types of people...and that they are more likely to be the"Nice" Guy next door, the husband who cheats, the person who bilks you out of your money, the exploiter of trust,the SNAKE in the grass that abuses and betrays you without conscience...I have to say...I think that most of us here can RELATE and CORRELATE our experiences to the defined Characteristics of our abusers through this book.
Just passing it on...I highly recommend it for those of us who are unaware of the MAJOR problem that exists in the human mind and that effects us ALL in one way or another.
BEWARE of the PSYCHOPATH‘s AMONGST US!
Knowledge is power!!!!!!!!!!
Ramble On
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| Topic: Sitting Duck Syndrome
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| Subject: Sitting Duck Syndrome - Posted: 7/25/2007 6:05:02 AM
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NO one and I mean NO one...steps into an obviously abusive relationship with masochistic goals!
These "people" GROOM us with LIES and manipulation and HOOK us with pity ploys and USE our vulnerabilities against us.
That is just what they do.
I think we find ourselves in victimizing situations.They slowly and insidiously change from our "perfect mates" or "perfect professionals" and we are left with the BURDEN of blame for "allowing it".
Victimhood is NOT a choice!
We do NOT ask for abuse!
We can only change our reaction to them with knowledge that they will NEVER change back to the "Charming,caring, trustworthy reliable" LIARS they are.
Hindsight is 20/20~
And it is all too easy to say.....Had I left earlier when he was KIND to me, i would not have become his victim.
My perp even said to me...." HOW COULD YOU HAVE KNOWN?"
I did NOT know what or who he was as he HID that fact for a long long time....It took peeling back the layers of his deception and manipulation to FIND his true colors.And then YES...I LEFT.
We as women and human beings in general should NOT be forced to protect ourselves from unknown EVIL only to be BLAMED for our ignorance to it.!
Before this experience...i did NOT know that a breed of moral insanity lurked in my midst.
I was a VICTIM of it.I am a survivor of it and I am ultimately a VICTOR in that I am fully aware that Psychopaths,Sociopaths, Narcissists,Anti-Socials, etc..exist...and if I am TARGTED...i am going to feel some serious pain!
These people come at us like HEROS...only to turn themselves into ENEMIES.
And you are oh so right..WE CAN‘T CHANGE THAT OR THEM!
The main reason people chose to "blame the victim" or hold the victim accountable for thier own choices is an attempt to feel less vulnerable or less succeptable to being exploited by an abuser of TRUST.
Lemme tell you...i NEVER would have expected it from a PROFESSIONAL!
We are NOT responsibile for the abuse...nor some of our reactions, in that some people are SO SKILLED at manipulation, there are some things that just are unavoidable.
I can‘t tell you how many people have said to me...YOU ASKED FOR IT.
LUDACRIOUS!
Tell it to the Ethics Committees who,if they are reported by NON -SELF- BLAMING clients, are brought to JUSTICE~
Ramble On
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| Topic: Sitting Duck Syndrome
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| Subject: Sitting Duck Syndrome - Posted: 7/30/2007 6:13:05 AM
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Ramble,Refuse to be the victim. He did what he did. You didn‘t see it coming.Next time you will!What he did was wrong. It will always be wrong. It‘s never going to change. It will never be "right". Nobody is blaming you.You learned a valuable lesson.
Find it in your heart to move on...............
Simple as that, huh?
Live and learn is NOT the same as Justice.
And if I am PISSED at anyone..it is MYSELF for NOT forcing HIM into the shoes I wear!
Listen...Had I reported him and held him accountable through an ETHICS committee.instead of PROTECTING HIS LIED TO FAMILY at my own expense without so much as a "Hey..thanks for NOT taking my liscence and family from me..maybe I could!
Moving on and getting over it is what HE told me to do so he could KEEP everything HE should have lost.
Instead..I answered for all, I paid HIS consequences, I moved my family, I almost ended up divorced, I PAID FOR IT ALL.
And yes..I SHOULD forgive him and forget.
But you know what?
He NEVER deserved that.Never asked for that. Never cared what he did to me. Never came CLEAN to save my reputation.Never did a THING but add insult to injury.
I didn‘t deserve to be EXPLOITED as a client, let alone a human being!!
Nor did his WIFE or possible other clients deserve to be Idealized, devalued and discarded....let alone BETRAYED!
Maybe I should just OUT HIM and move on.
I swear...Psychopaths get away with ALL! And thier VICTIMS sit an answer for all.
It makes me SICK!
Truly sick.
But thanks for the thought.
Ramble On
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| Topic: Sitting Duck Syndrome
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| Subject: Sitting Duck Syndrome - Posted: 7/31/2007 4:36:55 AM
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| sandrabrown wrote: | It‘s an amazing thing but the universe does seem to be tilted in favor of the psychopath. They DO get away with so much. It‘s the number one complaint by women that there is no justice. And to pursue it usually means more happens to YOU then him. An internal paradim shift has to occur where you see justice differently so the ability to move on is NOT contingent on him doing anything or anyone else granting YOU justice. It has to be the way of seeing it inside. And that‘s the hardest thing in life to do. So many women who have gone after psychpaths are eaten alive because our society largely supports pathological behavior and it is often rewarded. Aggression and narcissim can be deemed attractive in professionals and the people who try to take them down are the ones harmed. It just plain SUCKS. |
I am far from powerless.But, it felt as if I was given no choices.
There was a point that I felt like Einstien, in that I turned the (massage) tables with HONESTY in my own life and HELD ALL THE POWER.
I could use it for GOOD OR EVIL.
I REFUSED to allow that S.O.B. to turn me into him.I WAS afraid of him and his LACK of emotional obligations to ANYONE.I KNEW from what I had witnessed in his behavior while i was betrayal bonded to him and PROTECTING HIS IMAGE FOR HIM, that I had NO CHANCE at effecting his conscience.I knew people would BLAME ME and lemme tell you...
THEY DID in SPADES.Especially the ignorant to Professional Exploitation, let alone Narcissism and Psychopathy.
But I TRULY, TRULY appreciate that SOMEONE understands these horrific dynamics Sandra.
I don‘t WANT to harp about this for the rest of my life.BUT..it EFFECTED every aspect of my FAITH in HUMANITY.
MY JUSTICE comes from the internal wisdom that I am NOT a cold hearted,back stabbing Bitch, who intentionally went out to hurt someone, as he did.
Let HIM Harvest his own suffering.
I did learn 100‘s of HARSH LESSONS.
But I also know...i am NOT KEEN ENOUGH to avert a "Wolf in Sheeps Clothing" as I a foolhardy enough to continue to to LOVE, CARE AND TRUST in the GOODNESS OF men and women.
It just seems like all the "bad apples" rots the whole bunch.
The way I see it is that if I allowed him to turn me cold.He won.
Somedays...it feels as if he did.
But in the end..that is MY REACTION...the only thing I EVER had any control of was that.
I guess I thought I could IMPOSE my conscience onto him.
Like I was SO DAMN INFLUENTIAL.
LMAO!
All he did was wind up aggressively defensive, but then again...one of the MAIN issues in this people stems from over active defense mechanisms.
NO ONE CAN FIGHT THAT!
I am reading Dr. Hares book still and it is VERY informative.
I am beginning to understand the combination of impossiblity for these people to be "human" thanks to NATURE and NURTURE.
For a long time...i excused his actions due to my impression that I SHOULD PITY this person for his inability to EVER do the right thing because he was so emotionally scarred by his childhood.
BUT HEY.SO AM I and I don‘t go around exploiting people without FEELING.
There is a MUCH deeper element to all of this.
And JUSTICE to me seems to be that I am LUCKY i was not BORN predisposed to being a psychopathic or my own abused childhood might have made me NO DIFFERENT THAN HIM.
I feel SORRY for him.But not enough to hurt myself more by giving him another "Stab" at hurting me by trying to bring him to JUSTICE.
I guess I should find it in my heart to let this go.
I know...the UNIVERSE SEE‘S all.
And he is FAR from off the hook.
Thank you Sandra.
Perspective and VALIDATION is EVERYTHING!
Time to REFRAME THE PAST!
I may have LOST crucial parts of myself to him, but at LEAST I am not a permanently BROKEN MAN.
Starlight
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| Topic: Sitting Duck Syndrome
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| Subject: Sitting Duck Syndrome - Posted: 7/31/2007 4:47:15 AM
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"Life‘s a journey.......don‘t let him stand in your way......... "
You are right...I am sorry I am being defensive.YOU DO UNDERSTAND.I will try to let it go the best I can without it harming myself further than he already has.
There is NO turning back.
Only looking ahead at the GOOD that can still become of my life.
Maybe if i KNEW he felt an ounce of shame or guilt..keeping perspective would be ALOT easier for me to do.
I tend to fluctuate between OUTRAGE and FORGIVENESS.
I am still searching for a "Happy Medium".
My patience with myself is wearing thin.
Ramble On
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| Topic: Sitting Duck Syndrome
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| Subject: Sitting Duck Syndrome - Posted: 8/1/2007 5:36:18 AM
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| ToucheBaby wrote: | If you‘re anything like me...you‘re almost home free!
I couldn‘t seem to get it through my head he was such a ruthless man. It was beyond my realm of thinking.
Ya know....many people make mistakes. Most will at least feel some kind of shame....remorse. Damn! Something! Not this guy.
He wanted me to know how bad he was. He wanted me to know he bold faced lied. He wanted me to know it was "just because I can". Said those exact words to me.
Somewhere along the line I stopped thinking about how he hurt me and started wondering...how does a person sink that low?
How does a person get so much enjoyment from rubbing another persons face in the dirt? All the lies and deceit.. They know they‘re lying to you....with a smile on their faces....to boot! I mean really...what is gained from that? Sadistic pleasure? It has to suck to be them.
This man was funny,charming...he had a childlike boyish charm that made you think he couldn‘t hurt a fly. Do anything for you...the list goes on.
Looking back...it was all fake. Not a bit of it was real. In all reality..he‘s a joke. A bad one too!
How can a person walk through life being so fake and hateful........and call themselves happy?
The answer is because in reality ...he‘s really a very unhappy man and is to stupid to understand that so he instead,spreads his misery to others.
I view myself in a long line of others who have experienced the same from him.
The terrible things he did to me had more to do with him....than me.
That‘s the crux of it all to me!
I hope that made sense! At the end of the day its about who we are as people...........
He‘ll be looking for his next victim. While I‘m closer to finding something real.............
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ToucheBaby....
You HIT the NAIL on the head!
"The terrible things he did to me had more to do with him....than me."
I have never had very healthy boundaries thanks to my past,and often INTERNALIZED other peoples issues...this man was no exception.
I know I am a GOOD PERSON.
I USED to be Gullible and too trusting...vulnerable and naive.
I really TRY to stay on "this side" of JADED.
Somedays...i just want to GO BACK and do things SO differently.
Hindsight is not only 20/20.....it‘s a Bitch!
It‘s soooo easy to beat myself up,as he was too much of a COWARD to stand there and TAKE what he so easily dished out!
I guess i MUST have faith and compassion in the fact that these "people" are NOT FUNCTIONAL enough to "get it"
I wish i KNEW it wasn‘t intentional pain he caused..let alone PERSONAL, against me..but from what I saw...and FELT...it truly was.
That was SOOOO shocking...as the GOOD GUY he portrayed seems to have been his FASCADE! And worse...he BELIEVED his own lies.
Everytime I tried to point out that he was totally heartless...he got VERY ANGRY....The only option i had at the time was to BOW OUT and it felt as IF i was a coward for doing so.
I am FAR from a COWARD....but to go up against someone like this is about as dangerous as it get‘s.
I think worse than him damaging my ego...he stole my pride.
And as you said..Laughed as he did it.
SICK.
Ramble On
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| Topic: Sitting Duck Syndrome
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| Subject: Sitting Duck Syndrome - Posted: 8/2/2007 5:38:26 AM
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Sandra and Touchebaby...............
I thank you BOTH...from the BOTTOM of my wounded heart, my confused mind and my broken spirit for your WISDOM, KNOWLEDGE, EMPATHY and INSIGHT!
I will try to STOP shooting myself in the leg!
I see how impossible it is to fit a "Square Peg" into a round hole!
I once heard the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and ending up with the same results.
You re sooo right Sandra...
No matter how i try to rationalize, justify or define him as "NORMAL".
I ALWAYS come up short.
I know that in order to get over this...i MUST forgive him for MYSELF.
NOT him!
Strange how my mind keeps me in that prison,especially after SO MANY people in my past who were no less pathological, you would think i would GET IT by now!
I have spent a lifetime SEARCHING for Authentic,EMPATHETIC and trustworthy people...but something in me winds up with similar versions of my original abusers.
Ahhh...that ‘ole sitting duck syndrome continues to haunt.
I know i am the only one who can ever change that for me.
And I am truly trying...without totally isolating myself in FEAR.
It is almost like I am a MAGNET for "MONSTERS" thanks to only really ever knowing love as abuse, abandonment,and disrespect from people I NEEDED to survive.I all too easily Betrayal Bond out of HABIT and familiarity!Let alone DEMAND by my abusers.
I only WISH I didn‘t know if this "underground" pathology, but I also know that ignorance was FAR FROM BLISS!
That "pit in my stomach" feels permanent.
I hope it is my self preservation talking more than my FEAR!
Thank you again....Without people like YOU....i would never have the coping skills or ability to recover.
I may be resiliant...but this last exploiter truly took me down. HARD!
I put "all my cherries into one basket" and he knowingly and callously SPILLED IT!
He played the "GOOD GUY" to the hilt...and thanks to my NEED to restore my faith in humanity...i made a VERY EASY TARGET!
I have all but given up on people,and have absolutely NO FAITH or trust in professionals in postions of Authority, thanks to my knowledge of Abnormal Psychology, not to mention my interactions with so many victims of Professional Exploitation...in so many different fields...it truly makes it HARD to Pretend they don‘t exist in very large numbers, in so many ways.
Sorry Sandra...you might be an exception.
I would have to see if your words fit your actions over a VERY long period of time before I could trust you...let alone implicitly.
I am amazed at how long these people can SNOW others,only to ultimately BURN THEM so casually as IF they never had any meaning whatsoever to them.
When ‘they‘ say...
Lacking in Empathy
Devoid of Conscience
Victims are instruments of self gratification
NO REMORSE.
I can NOT wrap my head around it.
HUMAN BEINGS ARE NOT MEANT TO BE PREDATORY!
We should be fully evolved and SOCIALIZED by now!
WE are NOT ANMIMALS anymore..or ARE WE?
Sometimes I wonder if THAT is not the underlying theme!
It is still so hard to FATHOM...and you are right Touchebaby!
I am DAMN GLAD I am NOT and EMPTY SOUL with no Footprints.
I am also very lucky i have not run into or met a VIOLENT PSYCHOPATH.
I still have a CHANCE at living my life....scarred over wounds and all.
Some women are NOT so lucky.
To them... I send my sincerest apologies
for my trivial complaints!
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