Member Forum Search

Posts by IntenseQuiet.

Search found 47 matches.

Subject: Older women and younger men - Posted: 6/21/2006 9:59:01 AM

My h-word is 12 years younger than I am. One of the disadvantages for us has been the fact that two people who come from different generations can often have a built-in inequality whereby the older party takes on (voluntarily or subconsciously) the role of protector/provider/mentor and the younger one has fewer opportunities to take a leading hand in many personally relevant maturation aspects of the relationship. Put simply, there have been for us less chances for me to learn from him or his unique life experiences because I have been through much of the growth and personal issues he may face now in his life and already have gained/learned an answer (my answer, not his) to whatever emotional crisis of identity he may be facing.

As far as the advantages, there are many; we get along wonderfully as friends because we share a similar sense of conditions for happiness, morals and values.

Except for the value that says that one should not cheat on his spouse. =]

But we are working on that one.

Topic: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward?

Subject: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward? - Posted: 6/21/2006 11:34:20 AM

Hello gentlemen (and ladies),

My husband recently became an infidel with a female he works with. He became increasingly sullen, withdrawn, brittle and avoided looking me in the eyes or making physical contact with me for about a month. I questioned him, wondered what was going on to provoke the sudden change in his demeanor and personality. He continually said that he was either frustrated from work, or thought he might be having a bit of an identity crisis. Naturally, I was concerned to hear this, and tried to draw him out. He wasn‘t having any of it. He told me one day that he was trying to decide whether trashing our marriage was the ‘right decision to make‘ for himself.

I cried, I lost sleep, I paced holes in my carpeting.

One night after he went to bed, it was as if something tapped me on the shoulder to get my attention. That ‘something‘ told me to go through his computer to see what might be there that would give me some of the insight into his recent instability.

So, long story short..I went through his machine and found an online diary that he thought he had hidden and removed from his browser cache.

Guess what I found in that diary?

I questioned him that night, and we began to make reparations to this relationship.

Now, here is my question: I found out after a month or so that he had spent a few days after I found his diary talking to the other woman a few times a day, trying to, as he put it ‘see if he could make a friend out of her, because then the whole stupid affair would have at least meant SOMETHING after being so life-altering in retrospect‘. Naturally, after she found out that I found evidence she wanted nothing more to do with him, and stopped talking with him in a sexual capacity and stopped carrying on with him at work.

Now, why would a man really want to make a friend out of someone with whom he had nothing bonding beside the promise of sexual activity? Could it be that he was hoping to keep her on the back burner?

Fortunately for me, I am not obsessed with all of the details; I am more concerned with putting MY life back the way it was. Or even make it better. But I sure would like to know if it is some ‘big brother‘ syndrome that makes a man want to have a former lust partner be a friend.

Topic: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward?

Subject: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward? - Posted: 6/22/2006 11:57:29 AM

tiggis2006 wrote:

Problems..

1. men dont keep diarys.. at least most men dont..

2. A normal man I would say is still sexing her.. but a man that keeps a diary its hard to say..

would a woman keep a diary and then want to be friends?

Tiggis2006,

Very true; most men do not keep diaries. The fact that he created this one at an anonymous online journal site just to do a datadump of what transpired tells me something.
The only trouble is, I am unsure of what exactly it is telling me.

In his very first post there (two days after the affair moved from dirty talk and heavy flirtation to physically touching each other at work), he stated that he needed a place to vent, and that if he ‘wrote it down, perhaps it would make sense‘. I hate having to do the second-guessing thing as to what he meant by this comment, but I am more curious as to the state of his mind at the time than anything else. I suppose that I am trying to see what the catalyst was so that I can watch for it in the future.

In your response, I have to agree with your statement that a woman probably wouldn‘t keep an online anonymous diary outlining all of her infidelities. Unless she was perhaps confused as to why she is acting so uncharicteristically perhaps? Or I could just be projecting. Truth be told, I will probably never understand the complexities that lead up to the whole thing.

Topic: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward?

Subject: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward? - Posted: 6/22/2006 12:13:47 PM

terabyte25 wrote:

Actually, it wasn�t "natural" of her to bow out at all. As you might have read from some of the women�s stories on here, most mistresses decide to fight for the married man tooth and nail. That�s what happened to me.

I know you want to go back to the way things are, but I�m afraid that�s not possible. Something�s wrong in your marriage, and your husband is acting out in a way that may not be forgivable. He says his cheating was "life altering"... there�s no reason it would be "life altering" unless he was seriously considering dumping you without provocation.

Terabyte25,

I agree with you; it was NOT natural for her to bow out the moment he informed her that I found his online journal. I think that is one of the things that is confusing the hell out of me.

I have tried to figure out her reasons for trying to get her hooks into a taken man, and the best thing I can figure out is that he is her boss, and perhaps she hoped to use the power to her advantage and further her career with it. Or maybe she was just bored with both her job and her own live-in boyfriend. Who knows...and honestly, at this point it doesn‘t even matter to me.

I do have a lot to think about, and have concluded that this is his one shot. His one free throw with no foul. Because if I don‘t think of it that way, I will get too lost in the hurt and emotional agony and loss of self that I will probably be tempted to slit his throat in his sleep or cut his brake line or some such stupid thing. But in my life, I have yet to react to stupidity with stupidity, as all that usually does is make me not able to take the higher moral ground, and sometimes that higher moral ground is the only thing I have to cling to until I can find out who I am again.

I am definately not going to pretend that it never happened, and I know that we cannot go back to how it was before. In a way, I am glad of that, as I like many women here have found out that it was not all roses and champagne backrubs for the last few years, no matter what I thought while I had my blinders on. Thank you for your words, and your honesty.

Topic: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward?

Subject: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward? - Posted: 6/22/2006 12:29:38 PM

Katie,

I am going to suggest counselling to him and see what his reaction is. How he feels about revealing our troubles to a stranger will be very telling of how much he wants to save this relationship.

As a side note, we now have separate bedrooms as one of the issues we both had with each other is the fact that neither of us sleeps well when someone else is occupying our sleeping space. Yeah, it‘s pretty weird for married folk to do that, but I would rather have him well-rested and able to actually THINK than to be tired, crabby-assed, and looking for some little bit of fluff on the side to make him feel better about his life. Not trying to minimize what he did, but rather just explaining some of the surrounding issues we are also working through.

He has since apologized, and was contrite when he did it. I have told him what I expect (one item of which is to have my questions answered to the best of his ability when I have them) and we have began the labor-intensive, emotionally gut-wrenching process of rebuilding. The cool thing is that we are not patching up what we had, we have torn it the rest of the way completely down and are putting up something new and different; something that will not lock us into a mold of husband and wife that is unworkable for us. And no, I am not talking at all about an open marriage *blech*.

Thank you for your response, Katie.

Topic: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward?

Subject: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward? - Posted: 6/22/2006 12:35:21 PM

dbuck,

That is entirely possible, yes. He had mentioned to me a week or so ago that he was having this free-floating thought run through the back of his head (for a couple of months after the affair ended) that if I decided to ‘do something‘ to her, that it would probably have meant me showing up at his place of employment and the authorities would have ended being called. After that (he said) he probably would not be working there anymore, because all of his co-workers and HIS boss would have been made aware of the abuse of his power (and violation of so may personnel policies), so you could be on to something with that thought.

Topic: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward?

Subject: Why would he want her to be a friend afterward? - Posted: 6/22/2006 2:25:05 PM

Terabyte,

True, they do deserve to have karma take a bite out of their cheating ass, but here‘s the thing: what happens if I do something to make myself feel vindicated (because that is at the heart of revenge for being wronged) and I end up not thinking the consequences through enough and someone innocent ends up getting hurt by it all (like her kids, or her boyfriend). Now I am as bad as those I sought to take vengeance against and have no right to complain of their behavior being thoughtless.

But I must confess that there are times when I console myself with thoughts of supergluing her tits around a flagpole and sending the resulting photograph I took to her boyfriend. And for him, I would happily shave his eyebrows off and paint his nails bright red one night; then I would turn his alarm clock off so that he would not have time to remove the polish or draw in some eyebrows before he showed up for work.

And then I feel just a tiny bit more human about the whole thing and can carry on with living one more day, putting one foot in front of the other and then seeing where my life is going to take me.

Topic: Craziest sex location?

Subject: Craziest sex location? - Posted: 6/22/2006 2:43:56 PM

I never have been caught, but here is my list:

1. In the parking lot of a porno movie house (in an ‘81 Chevette! *lol* Yeah, I was a lot younger and more limber back then)
2. On a quiet bank of the St. Laurence Seaway in a tiny campground in Quebec.
3. I gave my first ever erm..oral gift to my boyfriend out of the blue one day in his VW bus. Yes, I AM that old. *chuckling* If I close my eyes, I can still hear his gasp of surprise.
4. In several state parks, just off of the hiking trails.

Topic: Cheating Husband - Should I give him a second chance?

Subject: Cheating Husband - Should I give him a second chance? - Posted: 6/22/2006 5:26:07 PM

Kat_Vixxen wrote:

Ladies - Need your help! My husband cheated on me after ten and a half years of marriage. We have four children ages 14 to 2 years old. Our marriage had been struggling, I was depressed from the death of my best friend and having two babies (the 4th unplanned) back to back and leaving my career to be a stay at home mom so I was probably not there for him like I should have been. However, he cheated on me with his employee (she is six years younger than him and was also married with three kids ages 10 - 16 months). The affair went on for about three months, I had an idea about it and he kept telling me I was crazy and I finally caught him a month later. A month before I had actual proof she called me to tell me they were just friends and nothing was going on (this was prompted by an email I had seen) and that she loved her husband. After I had proof they had slept together on travel I called her husband and gave him the info that I had. He had also had ideas something was going on but did not have the proof that I did. I caught him by cell phone records, emails, he bought $65 of contraceptives on a business trip that he was on with her, and also by using a hidden voice activated tape recorder in my car. I caught them kissing and talking for about an hour in my car and discussing things like their relationship, having slept together, and about leaving us (their spouses) to be together (he had paperwork done to divorce me but had not filed). I have been with my husband for fourteen years and she has been with hers for sixteen years.

Needless to say that I was going to divorce him but he begged for a second chance. She also is in the process of working it out with her husband. However, they work together, she reports to my husband (he is her boss) and even though he was wanting to work it out with me he kept trying to talk to her like a friend. The OW�s husband finally had her call me and she told me everything about the affair, sex and all of it, and she apologized to me for what she did to me and my children. She said that she thinks he really did not want to leave me but was attracted to her because she reminded him of what we used to have. She is alot like me. She stated that she did not want him now and that her marriage had been bad and my husband had swept her off her feet and romanced her, and she feels like he lied to both of us. Up until two weeks ago he still kept trying to talk to her about his working it out with me - more on a friend level. She told him that they had to be professional and wants to stay with her husband now.

She swears she does not want him now. He has said it was all a mistake but he lied to me so much about the affair. He told her he loved her. She was more honest about everything than he was. I felt her apology was more heart felt than his. Should I give him a second chance? She will not leave the company and he said he would, but now says he is not going to leave. How can I handle the two of them working together and could this happen again between them? Anyone have a similar experience? They only slept together twice, but did meet after work for two months to kiss and talk for about an hour several times a week along with talking alot at work, lunches and phone calls.

When I went through a similar situation with my husband and the OW that he worked with, the trust was not just shattered, it was obliterated. And knowing it was gone was the worst feeling. Well, that..and the exquisite urge we as women have to hunt down all of those details about the other relationship that rip our hearts out when we finally find them. And find them we do. Trying to fit it all together and make sense of it has turned out to be an exercise in futility, as there is no way I can ever really know what first lit that particular spark.

My husband was her boss, too. And for a week or so after the whole thing blew up after I found his hidden online journal, he tried (he says) to ‘see if he could make a friend out of her so that the whole thing might at least have some saving grace instead of being as worthless as it appeared to be; that there must have been something there that attracted him to her rather than the fact that he was bored with his life‘. But he realized that he was not interested in her as a person, and she was also not interested in him as a person. .

He still works with her. They still talk, but not on a personal level any more. Or, so he says anyway. He feels pretty stupid about the whole thing, and for me I wonder every day whether he will get bored and start it up again, or find someone else with whom he has no past to start it up with.

But here‘s the thing: I have no control over what he chooses to do. None. Zero. Could it happen again? Sure. Anything is possible. What I am doing is making sure that I am in a good place emotionally and financially so that I never have to worry about having that particular rug getting yanked out from under me again. I don‘t snoop through his things (even though I want do) and have made myself offer trust to him by respecting the time he spends alone in his ‘guy cave‘; his computer room where all his guy toys are. When I have questions, he answers them for me.

It is hard. We are relearning each other all over again, but honestly the best thing to do for yourself is to get yourself into a better place in your mind and your heart. When your anger and hurt fades to a dull pink, look at him with new eyes. Does he still have the base qualities you fell in love with years ago? Do you want him with you, or do you need him with you? Shift your focus slightly from all about him to rebuilding yourself as an individual. You may just find the woman YOU used to love as well. I know I did.

Topic: Avoiding the OW

Subject: Avoiding the OW - Posted: 6/23/2006 6:07:22 PM

robinad wrote:

I refuse to hide and not live my life normally, but i just do not trust myself in how i would react to her. I like to think if i saw her and she saw me we�d just walk away in different directions. But i do not know her, she could be one of those women that just loves to start conflict. I am pretty sure i will just walk away, b/c yes she did do me a favor.

But i will not lie, there is this part of me that just want to knock her on her ass b/c she is THAT woman. That woman that knows the guy is w/someone else, and then tries to be your friend. But i guess karma has a way of dealing with people like that.

So how have yall dealt w/the other woman?

Robinad,

You have done yourself a huge favor by deciding to not deal at all with her. She is the unknown factor in the equation, and you are better off not knowing who she is, how she feels, or where her life will take her.

Believe in karma: it will come back to haunt her. Maybe not now, but someday she may be faced with the same situation she put you into. But by then, you will have taken the higher moral ground, and made something good and positive out of your life and you will find an end to the pain of the infidelity.

As for me, yes, I have been tempted to ‘do something‘ to the OW. But I have been more tempted to do something to my husband, because he had the choice--and made a very bad one. That, in and of itself, reflects on me and the decisions I must make now. But I will talk with my good friends, and listen to the folks on this board and trust that time will bring me to a better place.

Topic: urrrggggggg

Subject: urrrggggggg - Posted: 6/23/2006 6:12:09 PM

thetaxguru wrote:

As far as your b/f is mad at you? He�s got the same clothes to get glad in.

I LOVE this phrase!

Topic: Hello from Downriver

Subject: Hello from Downriver - Posted: 6/27/2006 6:54:45 PM

Hello all,

I am posting this by way of introduction to the board.

I am 45 years old, married to my second husband (he is 33--but that is the topic of a different post!)

I joined WomenSavers after dealing with the fallout from my husband‘s infidelity for two months by myself. I happened across the site, and found here a good support system for women struggling to maintain their day-to-day lives while dealing with a cheating significant other.

It is never an easy burden to bear when someone you cared for yanks the rug out from underneath you and rocks the foundation you thought you had together. My husband cheated on me with a woman (girl, actually--she is only 28! I cringe, because I am old enough to be her mother. But again, those feelings are for another post.) he works with.

After the whole thing blew up in his face (read; after I found his hidden online journal where he was doing data dumps so that he could try to understand his own behavior) we came to the conclusion that we were not going to save the ‘marriage‘. We started all over at square one, becoming roommates to each other (that lasted for less than a week) first and soon after, we became boy- and girlfriend again. We do not speak of love, but are taking time to get to know the people inside that we lost during the years of our marriage where we tried to somehow turn ourselves into Ward and June Cleaver.

For us, it seems to be working. Yes, there are times when I have triggers and insecure moments, but he is being good at explaining what he was thinking during that cheatin‘ time, and I have also had to step up and explain my thoughts as well. For us, we both let our relationship slide a bit and even though that fact neither minimizes that he cheated on me nor shifts the blame for his infidelity, it still happened and there is still fallout to deal with on both of our parts. And we will be dealing with it for quite some time. We have set no time limits, and have decided that we will not toss out the L-word until we both actually feel it. Doing anything out of rote obligation sucks for both of us.

We are both willing to work toward rebuilding. And that is something I am learning to admire in both he and myself.

IQ

Topic: Just Sad

Subject: Just Sad - Posted: 6/28/2006 9:14:29 PM

jkivrob wrote:

All the way home driving, I felt mad, then I felt devastation, then PAIN. I cried all night, and then the next morning I called my lawyer. I wasn�t going to let him get me to the point of total "zombie state". I asked what my rights were and he said I had every right to change the locks and not let him in. Luckily the house is in my name, and we haven�t been married long, so hopefully, the divorce won�t be too messy. I haven�t heard from him in 3 days, and it�s probably best this way.

All I know is I HAVE to keep the "power" in me and NOT let him bring me to the point of absolute despair. I WILL get through this, and I�ll be a much better person for it and much stronger for it. A wonderful quote is..."I am not afraid of the storms, for it is then that I learn to sail my ship". Take care all and thanks for letting me share my story. Joy

Joy,

I know it is damned hard to be forced to feel this much pain so early on in your marriage, but keep your chin up. You did the right thing by deciding to protect yourself and the future of your kids by cutting this man loose. You can do so much better than someone who will lie to you and take you for granted. Keep listening to your gut; it is seldom wrong when it comes to cheating men.

IntenseQuiet

Topic: Can a Mistress ever be a Wife?

Subject: Can a Mistress ever be a Wife? - Posted: 6/29/2006 6:38:36 AM

ladyjayne wrote:

If he cheated with you, he�e likely to cheat on you because cheating is his way of dealing with marital problems.� Instead of seeking professional help or trying to communicate with his partner, his solution is to have an affir".

Can an ex-mistress wife ever feel really safe?

Maybe the grass is not greener after all!

Abs olutely, the mistress can become the wife.�

But for many men who cannot accept the adult reality of the fact that their dreamy teenage years are behind them, once she becomes the wife he realizes that the true inner turmoil he was seeking to project onto his wife is still there (and in time the new wife will end up getting the brunt and blame of that dissatisfaction also).� The dislike of his own inner self and personal past didn�t get better, he just changed some of the main characters. Dissatisfaction with self was the reason my husband cheated on me, but blamed me for nonetheless.

And the cycle begins anew.

The hardest hit victim of male infidelity is female self- esteem and sense of security, in my experience.� For me, once I realized that if he wanted to leave me for any reason I would still be on my own, regardless if there was another woman in the picture or not.� That is why I feel that it is vital for a woman to maintain her own sense of individual self and to rale against letting her identity become too tied up in being Missus.

And now I am going off on a tangent, so I think it is time for more coffee.

Topic: Seeking input on ‘love‘

Subject: Seeking input on ‘love‘ - Posted: 6/30/2006 9:02:38 AM

Recently, my h-word and I have been discussing his infidelity and the afterburn it has had on both of us. He did not wish to discuss it for the first month or so after it happened and now tells me that I am at a different level of ‘healing‘ than he is right now. To clarify, I am currently laid-off from work (dammit! *lol*) and have MUCH more time to spend rolling all of the pain and angst and the million monkey-brain questions around in my head.

He tells me that he doesn‘t necessarily wish to speak to anyone else that he doesn‘t know about any issues that he himself has had with the whole thing, that mostly he is content talking with me about it. I would actually like him to talk to someone, even if it is a distant member of his family. He could use the outside perspective. The insight and perspective I have been giving him has been very laid back (read: not as an angry hurt wife) and he has been pretty responsive, answering my questions and even coming up with questions of his own.

Yes, he is questioning his own behavior over the whole thing. He told me yesterday doing something like that was ‘not him‘ at all. He was in the Navy for 8 years and had ample opportunities to cheat on me without me ever finding out. But he never did. And while all this is true, my main concern is that he is now gun-shy about the concept of ‘love‘.

He told me two days before I found his hidden online journal that the reason he had been so quiet and distant with me was that he was pondering whether leaving the marriage was the right decision for him. I was shocked as this was the first time I had gotten any clue that he was generally unhappy. During the course of his affair, he mentioned in his journal that he was ‘thinking about just dating (the OW) for a while, having lots of sex and then in time, if they broke up oh well. Why does strong emotion have to lead to marriage and committment?‘

Over the course of the next month, we talked a bit but those conversations were very stilted and halting, naturally. He told me one day that telling someone you love them is like pointing a loaded gun at them: you cannot go back to the way it was between you before you shoot that bullet at them.

I told him that it was possible that he is perhaps speaking of a difference in definition and the assumptions that go along with it. After all, telling someone you love them usually means that the relationship will deepen, become more intimate, lead to marriage and committment, etc,. I want him now to think of what he means when he thinks of the concept of love. I have been doing the same, as I do not feel that all of the blame for the fucked-up-ness of our relationship falls squarely and entirely on his shoulders. (I do, however, blame him for not doing something constructive and healthy when he thought he was having an identity crisis. He was always one to defer to me and basically the few times he told me of his thoughts of his own identity being lost, my suggestions to him fell to the wayside so I didn‘t take them seriously and neither did he, apparently.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

My question is this: can anyone perceive the concept of telling someone that you love them to be a selfish one? In other words, that saying ‘I love you‘ is tantamount to saying that you wish exclusivity with the person and want to give the same in kind--to take them ‘out of circulation‘.

I would dearly love to hear your thoughts on love.

Topic: Seeking input on �love�

Subject: Seeking input on �love� - Posted: 6/30/2006 10:33:05 AM

cowboycrazy wrote:

No one�s perfect. Let�s face it. We fail the one�s we love, sure. It is inevitable.

But the hurt does not come from the love you give them. It�s how you make up for it and address it that is key. If he wants to resign himself to his bullet theory, which I�m interpretting as, you hurt the one�s you love most, therefore, why tell someone you love them...well, sorry, but I think that�s a bit defeatest. What good is that? To NOT love anyone and to hold that back, will get you NOWHERE in this world. To me, to not love, or with hold it would be worse than witholding it because you fear hurting them.

CBC,

He does indeed know I read his journal. It was through his hidden journal that I learned of the real reason he was treating me poorly for a month; he was cheating on me. =]

I am with you on the idea that to not tell someone how you feel if you love them is defeatest. To deprive oneself of the joy that comes from the caring for and accepting of another person is to be resigned to a life with no hope for real happiness, save the occasional bit of sex. And as many of us believe, sex and love are two separate entities.

I believe that he is really speaking of vulnerability when he says he cannot ‘go back to how it was before you said those three words‘. He is vulnerable at that point; vulnerable to being hurt, and vulnerable to hurting someone through thoughtless or careless behavior. But it is the BEHAVIOR that causes the pain, not the love. So, in his mind, he would rather avoid any conflict (which is why he didn‘t come to me to discuss the unhappiness he felt within himself about his own life, not ours as married people) and vulnerability. In return, he ended up hurting me deeply and claiming that he had fallen out of love with me. I think that when he said that it was purely a defense mechanism.

You have given me some good insight on this one, CBC. Thank you!

Topic: Seeking input on �love�

Subject: Seeking input on �love� - Posted: 6/30/2006 7:32:43 PM

nightlord wrote:

That is what he means with the analogy of a loaded gun, once you point it at someone the emotional view of that person is changed forever. He i think is trying to verbalise what he is feeling - the confusion and the highs of "falling in love" and i am sure the passion of a new relationship. Yet a big part of him is with you. Dont let him go because he still can turn around, all he needs to know is that you still love and need him with a passion. Him - do not read husband, provider, father - read Him the man, the lover, the individual.

Nightlord,

True, he has become more responsible and understanding of the scope that his infidelity has caused in his life, and that is a beautiful thing! =]

I think he is trying, like you stated, to verbalize what he is feeling. I have had to come to terms with the fact that men do not feel things or react to things in the same way, the same time or the same SPEED as women, and I have had to almost force myself to be patient while he tries to make sense of the whole affair in his head, as it was completely out of character for him. (which was one of the reasons I married him in the first place--I have no great love for the ‘bad boy‘ types.)

Yes, a big part of him is with me. He made the choice to stay and work it through. I will not just let him go, and have told him as much so that he knows he can take all the time he needs to come to his own conclusions. I do need him with a passion--in fact, it was the passion part of the whole thing that fell to the wayside when we started thinking of each other as Husband and Wife, and not as a man and a woman who love each other as people.

I can see now a bit better of what he might have possibly meant in his heart by using the loaded gun analogy, and I thank you for giving me this perspective.

Topic: Nice Guy about to cheat

Subject: Nice Guy about to cheat - Posted: 6/30/2006 11:21:47 PM

nightlord wrote:

Been married 15 years, love my wife and kids. 3 years in marriage wife wanted to leave me for another guy(no they were not physically involved), then decided to stay. She talked to the other guy over a 3 month period in front of me. Hell for me for next five years. Was hurt to the core and didnt know how to leave as i still love her and our kid (one then). Have accepted the situation for these years, but felt an emptiness in my heart. Been insecure all this while, she seem to have found an emotional confidante in her ex-boss and now our relationship is mainly husband/wife, mom/dad responsibilities. Have asked her numerous times a couple years back whether she still loves me, her reply was she "didnt know what love is ". Have since stopped asking.

I feel that she loves me being the supportive father/husband/provider.

I NEED TO BE IN-LOVE SOMEONE and have that someone love me back.

Flash to present:

Met a young woman who married young ( with one kid) to get away from an abusive father.

Was attracted to each other from the start, and one day we just hugged.

Now i am in a dilemma.

She says i am her first real love and for me suddenly i feel so loved after not having felt like this for so long.

No we have not had sex, though we have engaged in heavy kissing.

Worried it is going more physical than that.

For me, i have a whole family to lose, yet i see a life of a non-meaning "responsible" life ahead without this young lady, for her with much heart break she is willing to walk the road of uncertainty(and divorce her husband) if i care to have her, and she does not expect me to leave my family.

Ladies i await for replies.

It sounds to me as though some of the love you might be missing is the love you used to have for yourself as a person before marriage turned you and your wife into martyrs for each other.

I have been there, so has my cheating husband. We both turned into these odd people who so willingly gave away our hopes and dreams so that the ‘marriage‘ could flourish. My husband was in a very similar situation to yours; he also never ever once told me that he was having some issues in his own mind about the state of himself as a man or the state of his perception of marriage.

You can imagine my surprise when after a month of him treating me like a dogturd wedged into the waffle sole of his Nikes, I got very suspicious because he could no longer look me in the eye. I found the evidence I was looking for because I knew there was something making him so uncharacteristically pricky and he wasn‘t talking.

Now, here‘s the thing: I cried. I wrung my hands. He paced the floor. We were bitter with each other. And then we started really talking. The OW? He dropped her the day I found his hidden online journal full of details I would have happily lived the rest of my life without seeing. All she ended up being to him was a willing vessel with her own set of issues and hidden agendas. And hearing him admit that (and truly believe it) was one of the first steps on this road we are on now.

You see, he was afraid of conflict. So, because of that fear he never ever told me how he truly felt about his life, and our life together. Your wife may surprise you if you sit her down and tell her how empty you feel inside. For me, it was a wake-up call for not just his life, but mine as well.

At one time you were willing to risk telling the woman who became your wife that you loved her. You might not have even known if she would want to marry you at that point. Now you need to take the risk again, and talk with her. The fence you are on seems to already have started drawing you to one side or the other. I wish you all the best in this journey.

Topic: Fun question: Superman or Clark??

Subject: Fun question: Superman or Clark?? - Posted: 7/1/2006 8:46:20 AM

I would take Clark and dream about Superman when I slept. I am sure that at some point I would see Clark getting out of the shower without his glasses on and be amazed (and secretly titillated) at the resemblance between he and Superman. Clark is the reality, Superman is the dream/fantasy (the ultimate zipless fuck).

Topic: Seeking input on �love�

Subject: Seeking input on �love� - Posted: 7/2/2006 11:14:57 PM

Wow, I go on a date with my husband, and this thread takes off like a rocket!

=]

I would like to thank those that have responded to my initial question concerning the concept of love and its repercussions. Your input has been valuable in getting me back on track.

My husband and I have been getting along better and better each day, and even though it may seem as though our conversations are not along the same lines as many had by other couples dealing with infidelity, only we can say what is right for our situation. Sure, we sometimes have disagreements or conflicting definitions of some of the more common terms surrounding marriage (such as ‘love‘), but I know for a fact that if I cannot get any fresh outside take on concepts of contemporary marriage and am forced to use my own possibly outmoded, outdated, redundant and nonsensical definitions and perspectives I will undoubtedly fail at it again in time. As a woman in her 40‘s, my mind does have the tendancy to run in circles that it is familiar with. It is hard as hell to break out of those old thought patterns by just being left to my own devices.

And breaking out of them is one of the main reasons I joined this board.

Our situation is unique to us. No couple will go through exactly the same events and experience the same reactions and emotions as we are currently working with inside of our rebuilding process. Realizing this has made it easier to be objective for me.

=]

Topic: Seeking input on �love�

Subject: Seeking input on �love� - Posted: 7/6/2006 7:54:23 PM

ragnar wrote:

The greeks have three words for love, eros, philos and agape. Eros - romantic erotic love, philos - brotherly love, and agape - selfless love.

Warning: Long Post

Hi Ragnar,

Thank you for taking the time to make such a wonderful post! =]

First, I have to clarify a few things that I believe were misconstrued in my original post on the subject of love. My husband never ever told the OW that he loved her. In fact, one of her two ‘rules‘ were that there would be no speaking of love for each other. Odd, but true

What I meant to communicate here is now that we are working things out between us, he tells me that he does not want to discuss the concept of ‘love‘ with me until he knows he actually feels it, because once you shoot the ‘I love you‘ bullet, things tend to change between people, sometimes only in imperceptable ways that end up growing toward the tired, taking-each-other-for-granted state we found ourselves in as people when he ended up cheating on me. He was going through an identity crisis; depressed and unsure of who he was anymore, he had lost his individual identity and was not thrilled with the concept of a singular melding of two folks who used to be individuals when they originally fell in love with each other. The type of affair he was having was the ‘I want out‘ type. It had nothing really to do with his unmet needs at home, although he did end up listing several of them that he managed to whomp up to post in his anonymous online journal (the discovery of which was a shock, to say the least) because I believe he was seeking to justify why he wanted out of the marriage. He saw this huge pile of problems, none of which were ever mentioned to me, and figured that taken as a whole it was too large an obstacle to surmount so to cut and run with as little pain as possible (for him, anyway) was the best option for his own life.

A couple months after the affair ended (yes, it did end) he told me that he did not even feel like himself during the entire affair. When I had him re-read his journal from that time period he said that the tone didn‘t even sound like his, and the words and phrasing were harsher than he remembered the thoughts being when he wrote them down. I am doing my best to not focus all of my emotions on the horrid things he said in that journal.

I believe him when he says it is over. I also believe him when he says he was somehow trying to fit into a ‘bad boy‘ type of character with his bit of fluff at work. The bad boy was the total opposite of who he was in his heart, and perhaps he thought it easier if he were to become the thing that might offer him the least amount of emotional pain as the rest of his life crumbled around him. Yes, I know it sounds wacky, but I have known the man since 1997 and becoming that character was something not horribly outside of the realm of possibility for him.

See, he put me on a pedestal so damned high that he had no chance at all to try to reach me to discuss his issues--issues that were perfectly valid in his mind. He did this by his own choice and design. A ‘good‘ husband should be happy spending every single waking moment with his wife, right? A ‘good‘ husband should want to have the exact same wants, needs, desires as his wife, right? He should also happily put aside all of his individuality to better ease the transition from happy and free-spirited to Husband. He could no longer share his lust with me, as that was something that a good husband never did; he would never dream of defiling the shining example of womanhood that was his wife.

Yeah, I know. Ward Cleaver he ain‘t. I am not sure where he got such an outmoded way of thinking. Especially when it is considered that he is 12 years younger than I am.

Parts of it I do attribute to a lack of deeper maturity. But do you know what‘s funny? Since the whole affair blew up in his face, he has made amazing strides toward becoming a whole man and away from the petulant twenty-something he was when I first met him.

Committment? He is here, and I am here. And he is here because he wants to be here with me, and not out of some tired sense of marital obligation. Ever since he made that distinction in his mind, he was much more able to see that most of his personal misery was of his own making.

As far as my own feelings on the whole thing, there is no amount of monetary compensation in the world that will make up for how deeply he hurt me. But now that I have reached the absolute bottom of that well of pain, the only way I can go now is up. And that is where I am choosing to go. Because the other two options are: staying married and making him suffer daily for hurting me, and divorcing him and never getting any resolution or chance for growth from the experience.

It will be rocky at times. We have had miscues as we start completely over again getting to know each other. I have had the occasional meltdown in front of him. But he is always there to listen to me talk through it and offer comfort to me. Genuine comfort, as he knows that my pain is caused by his cheating behavior.

But here is something else to throw into the mix. Some of my pain is also caused by my own sudden awareness of my past willingness to give over the part of me that likes driving fast, alone, late at night with Marilyn Manson blasting from the speakers while I ponder what I am going to get tattooed onto my flesh next. He missed the ‘me‘ that I used to be when we were first together. I became Wife to his Husband, and in the best Tantric sense we are now slowly killing off those two characters and revamping this entire satire.

This time, I am thinking we might be on the right track.

He tells me that he doesn‘t know if he will be with me forever, because forever isn‘t here yet. There is a certain male sense of logic in that. But he also tells me that he has no intention of leaving, because he is happy and learning to enjoy his life again.

I had to give over some of the control that I once had, some of the way of believing that if I didn‘t take care of x and y and z, that no one else would. Strangely enough, once I did that, the earth didn‘t explode at all. He actually started becoming more responsible; for his life, for his happiness, financially, emotionally, etc.

Now, to address some of the points you raised, Ragnar: in response to Terabyte‘s post, you quoted part of my original posting ‘I do not feel that all of the blame for the fucked-up-ness of our relationship falls squarely and entirely on his shoulders.‘ Very true. There were wonky parts of the marriage I can see now that I was directly responsible for causing. But. I didn‘t cause him to decide to make a bad choice by cheating on me to avoid having any conflict with regard to his unspoken issues. That one was all his doing, and he has to live with his own conscience. I have taken the higher ground on that one, and have not lashed out in retribution or revenge. Had he even mentioned how much my wifey mannerisms annoyed him (like asking if he needed my help with something that was normally within his purview of tasks), it would have been quite an easy fix. But see, he tried to rationalize it to himself, and thought that such little things shouldn‘t bother him because they was no big deal. But when it was piled up with all of the other ‘no big deals‘, it became one huge hideous mountain of discontent and misery for him. I was so dedicated to trying to make him ‘happy‘, that I forgot who I was in the process. Very typical for many married or otherwise committed females as we are taught to put the entire world‘s needs before our own and end up ignoring who we are inside only to build up how the world sees us on the outside.

And Ragnar, I agree with you; sometimes there is indeed a ‘no-win‘ situation in life‘s bigger decisions. You say that someone saying out of the blue ‘it‘s over, I don‘t love you anymore, I want a divorce, talk to my lawyer‘ is being far more honest with themselves, but is also acting far more selfishly.

That is my husband in that statement right there. I had to find out that he felt he didn‘t love me anymore (and believes that he hasn‘t since shortly after we were married back in 2002) in his online journal that I found after being treated (uncharacteristically) poorly by him for a couple of weeks. He reacted selfishly to the entire situation, but that is no reason for me to not take my share of the responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage (but not for his individual unhappiness). He now is focusing more on maintaining his needs as an individual, I am focusing more on my own..and we are both focusing on becoming better friends who look out for each other.

The whole analogy of ‘I love you‘ being like a loaded gun? He verbalized his feelings with this analogy, saying that once you toss those words out there, the relationship changes, and yes, not always for the better of the two people involved. Committment is indeed a license to be lazy in the love department as you have said, Ragnar. Knowing that the other person will always be there no matter what happens is just asking for trouble down the road when the unthinkable becomes reality.

See, I still care deeply about the man. He makes me laugh, has an evil streak a mile wide and is adorably clumsy. But somewhere along the way, I forgot all of that. He became to me the man who would walk past an overflowing trash can on his way out to the garage without a second thought about it. And I took that to mean that he not only didn‘t care about the house, he didn‘t care about the relationship or me. Odd, yes?

He is becoming much more willing to show me bits of his own vulnerability when it is necessary before he can proceed. I am making it a point to react positively to these revelations and not belittle him in any way when he is expressing himself.

I am sending him a copy of your post outlining the three forms of love. I enjoyed the perspective it gave me. =]

Topic: A girl at work

Subject: A girl at work - Posted: 7/6/2006 7:58:42 PM

anonymous_heartbroken wrote:

My boyfriend and I work at the same place and sit right next to each other. Well this girl at work is always flirting with him. The bad part is she does this right in front of me. He also complains about her showing off her thong and the other guys at work looking. I will admit she does have a cute body but thats about it. His mentioned to me he would have sex with her and send her on her way. That she�s not girlfriend matrial. I always see her coming to talk to him or him going to her. On breaks she follows him outside and him the same. I guess my question would be, do you think he�s doing anything with this girl?

You didn‘t mention this in your post, but does thong-girl know that your boyfriend has a girlfriend?

Topic: did the cheater say sorry?

Subject: did the cheater say sorry? - Posted: 7/11/2006 11:49:04 AM

lorrie wrote:

i am sure you have covered this already, but i would like to know from men and women in broken marriages: did the cheater say sorry? how? did you believe it?

i am not talking about if you forgive them, i am asking did they say sorry, or did they want to be forgiven? what did they say and when and how?

The day after I found out the little roundheeled reason for why he was treating me like scum, I got an apology. And a contrite one at that. And I believe him. He has not asked yet for forgiveness. I don‘t know that he wants forgiveness, as he has never mentioned it to me.

But.

Was he apologizing because within 24 hours he lost TWO women who wanted him, or was it because he was truly feeling horrible for what happened between them, and for what he did to my heart?

I suppose I might never know. But then again, there are a lot of things I am never gonna know, and I have to make my peace with that in order to shake it off somewhat and begin to move forward, because finding out all of the agonizing details is sometimes worse than not knowing.

Topic: Need some Advice on Getting over it

Subject: Need some Advice on Getting over it - Posted: 7/13/2006 9:46:07 PM

dbuck wrote:

Things that have helped me:

Paint. Paint the bathroom some cool color or your bedroom, kitchen, whatever. It�s cheap.

Change your furniture around. Re-arrange it so it has new feel to the room. It�s free.

GO SHOPPING for knick knacks. Go to yard sales, resale shops.

Get rid of the stuff that reminds you of him. Even if it�s just boxing it up for the next garage sale.

Get a new hair-do. It�s kinda like " I �m gonna wash that terd outta my hair" song.

Take a week-end get away with a gal pal.

What ever it is DO NOT I repeat DO NOT involve alcohol. This will only aplify your sadness. And could bring about a call to said loser.

Good luck and give yourself time.

dbuck is right on this one. There is no magic bullet that will help you to quickly get over the shock of infidelity, or it‘s effect on your self-esteem.

Here is the list of things I do when I feel stressed:

1. Paint. dbuck, you and I need to get together to share painting tips. Honestly, if I put any more paint on my bedroom walls, I am gonna be forced to go outside if I wanna change anything more than my mind. =] But on the plus side, my room always looks cool as hell.

2. Drive late at night. The wind through the open window coupled with the busy-ness of driving make it much easier to think things through for me. I am alone, it is dark (so if tears do come, no one can see/hear me) and just the act of driving always gives me a lovely sense of control over something, even if it is only a fifty-mile aimless jaunt at one in the morning. Sometimes, being able to control even one thing the way I want it makes all the difference.

3. Break out of the destructive cycle of obsession. I try to find something I have always wanted to do (be honest: I know I had a list of stuff I used to want to do, but had given them up slowly but surely in order to take on his ‘hobbies‘ as mine in some way. ), but have never done before and off I go to do it. I went and registered for a CCW (carrying a concealed weapon) class several days after I found out my husband cheated on me. Preparing for the class gave me something positive to focus on beforehand, and after I took it, passed the test and got my certificate, I was able to have something else to think about and plan for for myself as well as add a new and interesting facet to my life.

One can never ‘get over‘ infidelity. It cuts to the very soul of your being and rocks the many foundations you believed you owned. In time, though, his cheating won‘t be the first thing on your mind when you wake up or the last thing you think of before you fall asleep. I wish you the best.

Topic: Need some Advice on Getting over it

Subject: Need some Advice on Getting over it - Posted: 7/14/2006 1:59:16 PM

Sassafras,

I had always been interested in a concealed carry, but had always talked myself out of going through with it because it didn‘t seem important, vital, something I should have, etc. I am so glad now that I did it; it was a nice positive step toward regaining myself, you know?

Topic: Need some Advice on Getting over it

Subject: Need some Advice on Getting over it - Posted: 7/14/2006 5:40:39 PM

dbuck wrote:

IntenseQuiet wrote:

Sassafras,

I had always been interested in a concealed carry, but had always talked myself out of going through with it because it didn�t seem important, vital, something I should have, etc. I am so glad now that I did it; it was a nice positive step toward regaining myself, you know?

That sounds like something I should do. Just in case a Open House turns into a nightmare. Have thought about it but have to consider my little boy.

dbuck,

If you ever decide to get a CCW and a gun, there are small gun safes that can hold your gun and clips in your home safely but still be out of your little boy‘s reach, yet still be able to be in your hand in seconds should you need to defend your home, or his or your life. That would be one less thing you have to worry about with a safe--having him stumble across your gun if you kept it in your nightstand drawer when you weren‘t carrying it.

Topic: Need some Advice on Getting over it

Subject: Need some Advice on Getting over it - Posted: 7/14/2006 5:42:13 PM

Sassafras wrote:

Intense Quiet, I totally understand. I just laughed when I read it wondering if you had fantasies of pulling out the gun next time you ran into him...I know I would have!

Sassafras,

Yess indeed, I have entertained more than one fantasy of pulling out the gun when he was around!

But I have been good, I promise. = ]

Topic: Need some Advice on Getting over it

Subject: Need some Advice on Getting over it - Posted: 7/14/2006 10:33:16 PM

Oh yes, before I forget: one thing I did that made a HUGE difference to me was I got myself an anonymous online diary (blogger.com) and without posting my name or the names of any of the other guilty parties, gave my brain free rein to post all of the vitriol, all of the poison thoughts I had during that time, all of the sadness, the regret, the anger, the frustration that I felt and had to carry around. In that diary, I made list after list of questions I needed answers to, things I did not understand about why it happened and just let my monkey brain go wild with all of the horrible, self-destructive and pervasive thoughts I had after I found out about my husband‘s infidelity.

I can tell you it sure did give me a great sounding board and venting spot.

It helps tremendously to be able to give a voice to all of the ugliness inside of one‘s head after getting the rug yanked out from under one by their husband and Little Miss Roundheels Cockjuggler.

=]

Topic: It�s been a year

Subject: It�s been a year - Posted: 7/21/2006 9:22:28 PM

gotcha wrote:

I feel such a sense of loss over the innocence of our marriage and that makes me the saddest.

I can relate to this very strongly. It has only been three months for me since the whole thing blew up and was over with him and his little roundheels at work, but there are good days, and there are bad days. I also tell my husband when I am having a bad day, and even though I am sure he doesn‘t want to always have to deal with the emotional backlash of what he did, he deals with it pretty well. That in and of itself is making me feel more comfortable being around him again. He is taking responsibility for what he did.

There is still a trust issue there, and I don‘t know if or when that will go away. I think it is like quitting smoking or drinking: you can completely give it up but it leaves you changed forever in its wake.

For me, I am trying to look at the loss of innocense as a necessary step in the evolution of our marriage into something more mature, more vital and real. It feels like losing my virginity in a way; I had some pretty immature ideas about sex when I lost it, but soon after I found I preferred the reality and maturity of sex than the idealistic misconceptions I held previously. Maybe I am still a bit of an idealist, but I believe now that our marriage couldn‘t have survived much longer unless that particular cherry got popped and we both had a chance to grow up into rational adults dealing with each other on a more level and mature playing field.

Topic: Paranoia rules my life

Subject: Paranoia rules my life - Posted: 7/21/2006 9:30:45 PM

Momof4 wrote:

I know it has only been 2 weeks and change...But I spend literally HOURS checking his messages, phone records, toll times...you know.

I�m wondering when I will be able to go out to the store without rushing home to check these things. It�s taking over my life.

He checks in like he is supposed to, he answers all my questions, and is altogether doing what he has to do.

I know these things take time, but after the therapist the other day, I�m even worse! We go back seperately next week...I hope that doesn�t drive me completely over the edge!

Does anyone feel like they�re losing it in a big way? I�m lost when he�s not home because I am so paranoid about where he is-but he�s calling all the time from landlines! Gah-I am going insane!

It will slow down in time. For the first couple months, I rarely left the house because I wanted to make sure that nothing was going to happen while I was gone. Yeah, major control issues for me, but when that particular rug got yanked out from under you, you were left with nothing but your own sudden insecurities to face while you were trying to figure out what the hell happened to the man you used to know.

Let me ask you this: how are you and he getting along now? Since you are in therapy, I take it that you and he are working through the issues you had, as well as the cheating? How are you feeling about him when he is there? Is he attentive? Is he contrite about what he did to you?

Topic: Words as weapons?

Subject: Words as weapons? - Posted: 7/24/2006 6:26:19 AM

I am at the point in the healing process where I can look at some things with a cool and objective eye. Amazing, I know. =] Never really thought I would get here. And I have a thought or two to share.

I now believe being told ‘I love you‘ can be used as nothing more than a shield to deflect anger, or to excuse bad behavior, or as a good, unconsidered reason for a person NOT to have to meet another halfway in any relationship. ‘I love you‘ is entropy waiting to happen. If you love someone the way they are, does that mean you may not love them in time if they go through the inevitable changes that time and maturity bring? Is the I Love You bomb used mostly by those who are innocent of all the hidden assumptions and meanings, as many of us are when we are younger and full of idealism?

Why are we all so happy to hear it at first? And why does the meaning of it seem to change with time?

There is one more phrase that I believe is used excessively without the meaning necessarily being the same in the ears of the receiver or the mouth of the utterer: ‘I‘m sorry.‘ Again, I believe there are times when it is used as nothing more than a deflector against possible anger, and can also be used as an insult. I‘m sorry (that you found out what I was doing). I‘m sorry (that you don‘t seem to understand me anymore). I‘m sorry (that I don‘t have the right words to explain why I did what I did).

I believe now that couples need to make certain that the definitions of some common words and phrases are the same for both parties involved. My husband and I have started doing this in the reparation process we are going through. We strive to have no more assumptions as to what is really meant by either party when we use a particular word or phrase. Like ‘wife‘ or ‘husband‘. Or ‘I love you.‘

I have decided (and he has, too) that neither of us wants to hear those three words. I would rather see the end result of how he feels about me, rather than have him toss those three words into my lap out of obligation, habit or expectation. So far, it seems to be working out pretty well.

Just wanted to share. =]

Topic: Bad dreams...

Subject: Bad dreams... - Posted: 7/25/2006 7:18:37 AM

Momof4 wrote:

I feel like I�m beating this dead horse into the ground. Last night (actually this morning-4am) I woke up crying. I had an awful dream that my husband and his ex-hoochie were laughing at me, that they got new cell phones, she would move to Queens, (no tolls, and where his new firehouse is) and they could be together.

I called his cell (he worked last night) and he didn;t answer. OK-he is a firefighter, in the busiest house in the Bronx-and can�t have his cell with him in his Bunker Gear-it causes interference with the new radios. I "get" it, but at 4 am I was a mess. I called 5 more times until 6:30 then he called me back from the firehouse number (landline, as is required). He was at a car fire then another call at a shelter up the road from the FH. I want desperatley to believe him!!!

I know (or hope) it was the dream that made me nuts, but when my heart was beating out of my chest and my hands were shaking, I felt like I was drowning and was going to die.

Can someone help me to calm down? I�m losing it!

That is a pretty horrible dream!

You sound as though you are about done with feeling the stress, the mistrust and the particularly nasty sensation of feeling as though you are on the worst rollercoaster ride in the world that never seems to stop or let you get control of it. For me, that is the worst part; the feeling that my life is out of control.

Here--let me share with you a dream I had last week. I dreamt my second husband (current husband) was having an affair with my first husband. I found out that affair had been going on since 1998. I questioned him in the dream (same as I do in real life) and he told me that yes, he had lied to me..and lied thousands of times. And I was filled with that horrible, spinning sensation of not being able to get hold of any control in my life--the sensation of running for all I was worth, but never ever being able to catch up. The worst part? When I woke up and actually had to convince myself that my second husband didn‘t even know my first husband back in ‘98! And that end result is what happens when trust is broken after an affair.

But what to do? You can question your husband, yes, but will that give you any sense of calm and control in your life? Always expecting your comfort to come from him (as he is the one who caused the original pain to begin with) isn‘t always the right path to take. At least, it isn‘t for me. It makes him into sort of a god, doesn‘t it? He who giveth the pain, and he who offereth the tiny shreds of comfort needed to deal with the pain he caused.

Perhaps the best way to get a handle on the entire mess is to try to regain your own sense of individuality--the one you had before you got married and became Mrs. Cakeman. Easier said than done. I know, because I am trying like hell.

A few hours have passed for you since that dream. How are you feeling now?

Topic: Hello from Downriver

Subject: Hello from Downriver - Posted: 8/19/2006 10:05:46 PM

Drowsyparrot,

Yes indeed, I do still find myself looking over my shoulder, wondering if it will happen again. And what I will do if/when it does. I detest the insecure feeling I get sometimes because of it, and that alone is something that will probably never ever go away. The innocence of our marriage was destroyed and will never be regained. I am still in the process of learning what will be replacing that innocence in our current project of rebuilding.

Now, I am seeking to fill up the empty place in my heart. And hoping that I never again have to worry about the other shoe falling.

How about you?

Topic: Tired of the blame

Subject: Tired of the blame - Posted: 8/30/2006 6:37:45 AM

I looked at the calendar today and realized that it has been a bit over four months. Actually, I looked at the calendar and thought "Damn, it‘s only been four MONTHS?" It feels much longer.

Today, I was spraying some training repellant into a corner that one of my cats has begun to do his business in when I realized something. Every time the cat starts looking as though he might think of using that corner I am up out of my chair and chasing him off to the basement to do his business in his box. I get frustrated. I spend hours wondering why he is soiling my lovely carpet when he has a perfectly good box downstairs. I worry about it when I am not home, wondering if I will return to find a soaked corner. I spend lots of time scrubbing the carpet. And worrying about the new behavior.

And what I should have been doing, apparently, is going down to see if the cat box is possibly getting too icky for my cat‘s taste.

Somewhere along the line, I had moved from changing the box twice a week to only once a week and the cat noticed. And was trying to get my attention.
___________________

My husband tells me that he sometimes is worried that I will never trust him again, and that in time we might be strangers again. While I am happy that he can verbalize these feelings, I am also not happy because the reason I cannot trust him is because he has broken the trust, shattered it to bits when he cheated. When he says things like that, I cannot help but think that there is some part of him that wants to get back to a bit of how things ‘used‘ to be between us. Like when I trusted him.

I know he is probably tired of having to occasionally deal with my questions about what happened, or my concerns for our future or my random meltdowns.

But I don‘t know if he is aware of the fact what has been undone cannot be redone. All it can be is ‘different‘ now, especially since he stated (back in April in his journal) that he doesn‘t think he loved me since shortly after we got married. I try not to think of this statement, because in the interim there have been thousands of times he has told me he loved me. I thought I was loved, I was comfortable, I felt secure and good that I had made a right choice (this time; this one is my second husband) and was looking forward to the future. And that is when the rug was yanked out from under me.

So, now I find myself asking him questions when something seems amiss. I ask how his day at work was (because the slit he cheated with was some twat at work) and try not to scrutinize what he tells me..or DOESN‘T tell me. Every time he kisses me, I wonder if he kissed her the same way, with the same passion. He tells me that when we almost broke up because of it, that he was at no time going to leave me ‘for her‘. I have trouble believing that, because it was her that made him ‘suddenly‘ realize that he didn‘t love me, and it was her that made him feel sexual again, and it was her that made him want to start dating her. In his journal, he compared the two of us, and I lost. Why is he still here, you ask? He says that even though we came to about a half-inch away from him leaving me, he never actually wanted to leave. This confuses me because I am not sure what he thought was going to happen after I found out about the little gutless cunt at work. Perhaps he figured that I would be alright with him dating her, or just banging her on occasion. Maybe he thought that he really didn‘t do anything wrong (I do know he blamed most of the affair on me, naturally. My evil ways, my lack of whatever blahblahblah. It wasn‘t my dick that she had her louse-infested hand on.)

What did he think was going to happen after I found out about it all?

You know what troubles me the most? That not much has really changed between us, yet he claims he is happier now than he has ever been. He says that the reason he cheated was because he was depressed, and she was a bright spot of color in his drab life. So. What does one say to that?

I am tired of getting blamed for his unhappiness. I never blamed him for mine.

Topic: Tired of the blame

Subject: Tired of the blame - Posted: 8/31/2006 6:12:42 AM

And the worst part of it all is having to work late one night, and feeling compelled to go through the trash (that he so thoughtfully..and uncharacteristically..bagged up) and ask him a thousand questions about his movements while I was away.

I hate that. I hate being forced into that.

Topic: Tired of the blame

Subject: Tired of the blame - Posted: 9/4/2006 4:51:49 PM

Rhiannon wrote:

IntenseQuiet: He is lucky to be married to you instead of me, because I�d have kicked him to the curb. Reading the journal would have surely done it. How dare he compare you unfavorably to anyone else - let alone sticking his dick into someone else?

What got me the worst wasn�t the sex he had with someone else, which granted is the ultimate betrayal. What got me were the lies. There were so many lies. Affairs aren�t just sexual experiences. They are covert operations. There is planning involved, lying involved, sneaking around involved, and more lies to cover up the lies to keep from getting caught. It takes some real energy to do all this. There are the lies when you ask them what they are thinking, and why they are being so distant. Then there are the lies when they get caught. Here were a few that I heard:

1) It really wasn�t even any good!

2) I didn�t feel like you wanted me anymore. You were always so busy at that job;

3) All you do is work, clean house, and take care of kids. You don�t pay attention to me anymore;

4) She was someone I could talk to;

5) I felt sorry for her.

Once a person has been through it, you pretty much never look at men the same way again.

Rhiannon,

What got me was the famous ‘and it didn‘t even MEAN anything‘.

If it was meaningless, that says that you were willing to risk your marriage, your job, your future, your honor all for something that was in effect meaningless to you.

Hearing that it had no meaning did nothing for my ego. Didn‘t do much to quell my anger and hurt, either. Covert operation, yes indeed.

I hate lies. I hate when they cannot find it within them to tell you what is going through their mind when they become distant. And usually they become distant before they cheat..or right as a new affair is beginning.

Takes all their energy, you know.

I don‘t like to take second fiddle to some gangrenous slit.

Topic: How long?

Subject: How long? - Posted: 9/5/2006 8:39:46 AM

Been four months and nine days for me. Yes, I am still having difficulties dealing with it. I also am having trouble trusting him again, even though he says he is afraid and concerned that I might never trust him again. I feel as though I stepped into the looking glass and that the whole world is not as I thought it was.

I both hate and like who I am becoming. I am learning patience. I am learning forgiveness. I am learning to never again put all my faith into one man and give him all of my personal power.

You are not crazy. =]

Topic: In the Shower

Subject: In the Shower - Posted: 9/10/2006 10:10:49 AM

After his infidelity, my husband has been making amazing strides in his attempts to successfully communicate both his emotions and his reasons for doing what he does during his daily life to me when we talk. This was one of the things I told him I needed him to do so we never again have the communication shutdown we had before he cheated.

In the ‘Before Times‘, he could never tell me why it was he would toss off in the shower some mornings before work when I asked. I am one of those inquisitive women, asking questions about things I personally don‘t understand.

And I personally don‘t understand how a solo dance in the shower can wake one up in the morning, and if done in the evening before bed, can relax one enough to sleep soundly.

Any insight, guys?

Topic: In the Shower

Subject: In the Shower - Posted: 9/10/2006 6:12:20 PM

This is true, yes. It does help to delay any prematureness, and that is always a good thing. =]

But for me, I wonder why when done at night it makes a man sleepy and if done in the morning, helps to wake him up. It seems to me the act would have one or the other effect, but not both. But then again, I am a grrrl, so I don‘t know from these things.

Topic: 44 yr old guy never married or lived with someone

Subject: 44 yr old guy never married or lived with someone - Posted: 9/10/2006 7:16:13 PM

CHGirl wrote:

Okay I would like the guy�s thoughts on this. I�m back in the dating jungle and met this guy. Asked the, "So have you been married before" question. He said no he has a hard time sharing the bed! LOL and joked about seperate room for sleeping. He hasn�t even lived with someone yet. Now... I understand when i want to sleep i want to sleep and have space to move. He did say he never bought a king size bed because he was afaird he would get use to the extra size and never be able to share it. I mean he was just telling like it is and i respect that. Like I said I like space also BUT what does that mean in a guys mind. It was the first date and we talked about seeing each other again. The guy really knows his wine and we had a great time.

Is this guy not worth getting to know? Is this a player line?? Hey, I�m just alittle gun shy from the last lier. I like men just want to stay away from the jerks.

****What I should ask is will this guy ever be able to share a bed? I found that statment a little odd***I will say I look for the cheater in a guy now....sorry...just my baggage now thanks to the last guy.....

I am also not male, but I am married to one and about five months ago (after the infidelity) we talked about his and my sleeping arrangements. He had apparently been in a sour humor for a few years because he is large and sleeping in the same bed with me (a bed hog, a snorer and a hopeless cuddler) was causing him to miss enough sound sleep to put him in a piss-poor frame of mind for the rest of his waking life. The bad mood from not sleeping and waking up cramped and in pain probably contributed to his infidelity to a small degree. I can certainly say that at first, I was hurt that he wanted a separate room, but now I am glad we did it because he is MUCH more pleasant to be around after he actually sleeps. This could be what your gentleman was talking about when it came to the ‘bed‘ issue. As many of us women know, we can get by on much less sleep for long periods of time in our lives if we have to. Also, for him it might just be a space issue. He might just like to have his own ‘guy cave‘ to relax in.

I used to wonder what was up with married folks who had separate rooms for sleeping, but now that I have my own room, I have to tell you that I understand it a LOT better now. I say if you enjoy his company, continue to enjoy it and let the bed issue settle itself if and when you both get to that point.

Topic: This thing called love

Subject: This thing called love - Posted: 9/15/2006 7:20:15 PM

It has been almost five months to the day that my husband cheated on me. Yup, that is still hard to type. But life must press onward.

Anyway, I found out later that as his affair was heating up (and he had become more and more confused as to why he was doing it) he had looked for an apartment for himself. He had had a preconceived notion that we would naturally have to split up because of the affair, because ‘that is just what people do‘.

Well, we didn‘t split up, although we did put seperate bedrooms in the house. That is working out very well, by the way.

The puzzling part of this whole thing is that he stated in his online journal (that he kept secretly at the time of the affair) that he didn‘t love me anymore, and that he didn‘t think he had loved me since shortly after we got married.

Now, he says that he doesn‘t want to tell me that he loves me, because if he could find it in him to cheat on me while he was supposedly in ‘love‘ with me, if he just spouts those three dreaded words, he might start just telling me he loves me out of habit instead of when he really feels that way. He also says that the way he feels about me now is different than it was back then, *duh* and he doesn‘t recognize it as ‘love‘. He doesn‘t say it is worse, just different now that we have started to repair the two people we used to be way back when.

So, guys..what is it about love and the surrounding concepts of it that can make a man lose his vocabulary? I have not pressured him at all to tell me he loves me, but I do like him to tell me how he feels. I know that sometimes that is difficult for a man, but we are starting with baby steps here in the regrowth process, and he needs to recognize how he feels before he can even begin to feel something as convoluted as love.

Thoughts?

IQ

Topic: This thing called love

Subject: This thing called love - Posted: 9/16/2006 8:35:27 AM

TiredOfWomen wrote:

I have always had a VERY hard time saying "I Love You," much to the consternation of women I�ve been with. That�s because I think it�s way overused in cases where it�s not the truth. It diminishes the meaning. People use it after they�ve been seeing each other for a couple of months, and that�s totally ridiculous.

Call me old school, but I believe "I Love You" means forever. If you�re not sure of forever, then why would you say it? You intimate with that statement that you will be with that person come hell or high water. You will work your way through any and all problems that confront you. You will stay committed until the end of your lives and you will never give up hope no matter what happens. There is no greater commitment in the world than that, so how can people use it so casually?

I say "I Love You" to my kids and my family. That�s because it means everything I just described above. If you can envision that person doing something that would make you want to get rid of them from your lives, then "Love" is not the right word. Under no circumstances could I ever see abandoning my family because of something they did to me or to anyone else, even if it hurt me (which I know they wouldn�t do). I would work through it. Why? Because I do love them. I could never envision them not being a part of my life as long as we�re alive.

The reason I always had a hard time saying it to someone I was with was because I wasn�t sure they meant the same thing by it. To some degree I felt I was coerced into saying it in order to make them feel better...and that was TOTALLY wrong.

In your situation he may be coming to the same conclusion. What he feels for you is co-dependence and close friendship. He sounds a bit like he may have some old school ideas about things like I do. Maybe it makes you feel better to hear it, but it shouldn�t because it probably doesn�t mean anything as significant as "love".

I am with you on the seriousness and forever of ‘I Love You‘. I don‘t say it casually, or to manipulate someone, or to end an arguement. I don‘t like to hear it just in passing, or from someone I barely know.

‘Love‘ to me is not one single emotion or circumstance. It is the sum of many. It is a destination that has numerous routes. It is the elusive thing that many people spend their lives desperately searching for, like the holy grail.

But.

Not all love is the end-all, be-all type of love. But that is a topic for another post. Thanks for your thoughts, TOW. =]

Topic: This thing called love

Subject: This thing called love - Posted: 9/16/2006 9:01:21 AM

Dag,

I also feel in my gut that his not wanting to tell me he loves me (or even being able to recognize and define what ‘love‘ is to him anymore) is leaving him an out for not only the possibility of another affair, but also responsibility for the first one. The thing is, he didn‘t even realize how he really felt about me and our committed relationship until he was already engrossed in the affair. He used the ‘lack of love‘ line to justify to himself what he was doing.

He had spent a few years being ‘in love‘ with me, and sure, things do fall to a more comfortable level between two people after time passes. But he now says that his affair was more of a symptom of what was really going on in his head: He was depressed, and felt hopeless about his own personal future. She was a bright spot of color in his dull, grey world. He told me after I found out about the affair that I had ‘nothing to do with it‘, and that it meant nothing. Because see, if he ended up being able to make a friend out of her afterward, the affair would have ‘meant‘ something. I completely don‘t understand that.

Perhaps he is saying that if they could have become friends, that the sexuality they shared would have been justified and real. As well as the lying, and cheating, eh? Nope, I don‘t understand that.

Since the affair ended and we began to reshape our lives, he has made me no promises. The funny thing that makes my stomach sorta hurt when I think about it, is that he says that he will never leave me. I still wonder what is keeping him here, beside the fact that he is not fully mature enough to take responsibility for his own happiness. (And I am not sure if that is actually what is keeping him here)

What keeps him with me if not love? Financial dependance? Can‘t be; we make about the same amount of money. The fabulous sex? There has to be a better reason to spend a lifetime with someone than just great sex. Convenience? Maybe it is easier to stay here than it is to cut bait and move somewhere else. The comfort of familiarity? He is typical of many men in that he holds no strong need for the familiarity of the known over the unknown.

As far as what he has done to win back my trust or make amends for what he has done? He has started to become honest with me again, even about little things that he used to lie about to cover his own ass. He has begun to sort through his own emotions enough to see that he was blaming me wrongfully for his own unhappiness. He has relaxed his wallet and begun to be more financially responsible for his own poor spending habits (and this is one of the issues at the heart of the whole depression thing; he wants so many toys, but spends too much on lunches out, and gun magazines and motorcycle magazines that he cannot save for anything. He doesn‘t understand sacrifice as of yet and willingly blamed me for all of that as well.)

Did I mention he is 12 years younger than I am? He just might not understand the same level of committment as I do because I am at a different stage of maturity than he is. All I really want from him is to see that if he is here with me, it is a concious choice. I don‘t want to keep worrying what he is doing when he isn‘t home. And Dag, I want him to step up to the plate too and admit that he fucked up and take responsibility for it. Thank you, Dag. You have given me something to think about.

Topic: The Other Shoe

Subject: The Other Shoe - Posted: 2/20/2007 10:05:13 PM

Even though it has been almost a year since my husband got found out, I find myself once again occasionally feeling as though I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Now, he has been increasingly more stable, kind and has also been more of an adult than he has in the decade I have known him. Sure, when we first exploded over the infidelity there was blame being tossed around on both sides. From him, that blame was that he never ever told me that he was feeling so horrid in his home and personal married situation. From me, the blame was more centered around the fact that I had no idea that he was unhappy enough to want to lash out at me by having an affair instead of telling me he was having some difficulty finding his balance in his own life.

But now, and just every once in a while, I feel that the other shoe is gonna drop again.

Topic: The Other Shoe

Subject: The Other Shoe - Posted: 2/21/2007 6:33:17 AM

Rhiannon wrote:

It sounds like you are both trying. I think what might be happening with you is that you are afraid to trust it. Getting trust back - once lost - can take a very long time.

I think you might be onto something here, Rhiannon. The loss of trust that I had previously taken for granted has shaken me to my most primitive foundation. Makes me feel as though my future is not secure, and actually...is the future ever really secure? Having those epiphanies hit me out of nowhere is unnerving.

I am rather afraid to trust it. I trusted before and was shattered emotionally because of it. He does feel bad about the affair, and yes, does regret what he did. On the other hand, I am still harboring occasional feelings now and again of anger, hurt, resentment. I have gotten to the point where his affair is not the first thing I think of when I wake up, nor the last thing I think of when I go to sleep. That was a relief, I can tell you.

He now states that he doesn‘t know how to express verbally how he feels about me. He refuses to consider the word ‘love‘ and that is fine. If he was able to cheat on me while being in a state of love, than perhaps love is not what he now has.

Topic: The Other Shoe

Subject: The Other Shoe - Posted: 2/23/2007 4:38:05 PM

As there has been a bit of confusion in my previous posts with regard to my husband not being able to express how he feels about me, I should clarify what that seems to mean right now with us.

When I first found out about his infidelity, he was at the ‘angry‘ stage of things; angry at me, angry at not being able to find it within himself to be able to tell me what was frustrating him, etc. I was shocked at his anger, as I had always encouraged him to share how he felt with me. He blamed me for his personal misery.

Personally, I felt and still feel that that is horseshit. And cheating on me didn‘t even make him feel better. It made him feel worse and even more confused about the state of his marriage. See, he had thought it was over with. He was telling ‘her‘ all of our problems.

And was I shocked to hear that we even HAD problems, as he never mentioned them to me.

He mentioned that he thought he hadn‘t loved me since shortly after we were married. Again, I was shocked. He told me then that he wasn‘t sure what love even was anymore.

I get confused at statements like this, because what the purple fuck is he still doing here with me, working it out and even planning on his future if he doesn‘t love me?

But he can‘t tell me, because he can‘t define love.

He has been more relaxed and happy than I have seen him in years. And so have I, amazingly enough.

Am I misguided by wanting him to be able to love me and express that love for me verbally? He does express feeling for me by showing much more interest in our life and our home than he ever did. Should I just let him feel how he feels and not worry about hearing of his ‘love‘ verbally?

Maybe I am just having some leftover trust or insecurity issues.

Topic: how to spot an asshole man

Subject: how to spot an asshole man - Posted: 9/29/2007 1:32:29 PM

When he smiles at you and somehow his smile never manages to reach up to his eyes, he is an asshole.

When he has been avoiding you and ignoring you for weeks and the only answer you get to ‘What‘s wrong?‘ is a quiet ‘Nothing‘ while he quickly minimizes the porn site he is perusing, he is an asshole.

When you stand in front of him after confronting him on his cheating and he tells you that he ‘Did it because he couldn‘t feel "us" anymore‘ he is an asshole.

Part of my own problem was expecting him to love me as much and in the exact same way as I did him ... before he cheated on me. And that made ME an asshole. But I‘m not one anymoooooore!