Hello all.  New member here.  Male, and ready to give you my impressions.  I‘m pretty sure you won‘t like them, but here goes.

Why do men enjoy porn?  It‘s simple.  For the same reason they cheat.  They feel they are missing something in the relationship.  I know you don‘t like that answer, but the truth is still the truth whether you like it or not.

The fact is, if they felt they could fulfill the needs they are envisioning through porn, they wouldn‘t need it.  Instead, they are made to feel guilty about it.  READ THAT AGAIN.  They are made to feel guilty about what would sexually gratify them.  It‘s dirty, filthy, and disgusting.  And of course, what you find to be sexually gratifying is pure, perfect and right.

It‘s this type of hypocracy that drives men to secretly take care of their needs without having to depend on the woman.  If your man is looking at porn, what kind of porn is it?  There are many different categories.  Have you asked him what he fantasizes about when he‘s looking at it?  How far are you willing to go to address those fantasies?  Or would you rather just write them off as sick and twisted and tell him he needs to get his act together and maybe visit a counselor.

I can tell you now that if a man does not feel safe opening up and talking about such things, you have NO CHANCE of understanding it.  And, if for a moment, he feels you are judging him you will NOT get to the truth of the matter.

Personally, I never felt the need to cheat.  The reason being is that I, like many of men, would absolutely prefer that our fantasies be fulfilled by someone we have a relationship with and care about.  But the rude fact is, we know it will never be...so porn fills that gap.

Sorry if you don‘t like what I have to say, but quite frankly, as my name states I don‘t care if I ever get into another relationship at this point.  So I have no reason NOT to tell you the way it really is.  The problem you will have in verifying this with your mate is going to be based on how much he feels he can trust you not to judge his response.  And therein lies your problem.

If you want to get to the bottom of this you need to spend some time reassuring him that you have an open mind and won‘t judge him.  That all you want is to really understand what he wants and be able to make him happy.  With any luck, and with the right guy, he‘ll want to reciprocate.  But be careful...one "ewwwwwwww" out of you and the honesty link about this subject will be cut.

An ultimatum??

I guess you‘d better stand behind it then.  Do you REALLY think, given the way he acts, that you have scared him enough with your threats to stop him from doing it?  Or is it more realistic to believe that he‘s probably just gone further "underground" with his porn?

Let‘s turn the tables a bit.  How about if he says to you that if you don‘t start looking at porn with him and trying out some of the stuff he looks at that it‘s over?  He has just as much of a right to make that ultimatum to you as you had to make your ultimatum to him.

He‘s addressing his desires through porn that are not being fulfilled in real life, and may very well be fulfilling those same desires with someone else.  Personally, if I had been given that ultimatum with no chance of addressing WHY it is I look at porn and what could be done to fulfill those needs instead of porn, I‘d be more than happy to break things off.  But then again, I‘m a little older and don‘t feel like playing the "game" anymore.

I was going right along with you...until that "foot needs to come down hard" thing.  Unless of course you just mean that you‘d just break it off...then it‘s understandable.

If, on the other hand you‘re talking about an ultimatum..yeah...that‘s gonna REALLY work well.

I‘ve never felt the need to flirt, whether it‘s with a significant other or just a female friend.  That just SHOUTS low-class disrespect to me.  But what I don‘t get is why, if it bothers you, you‘d tolerate it past the first time it happens?  It doesn‘t call for an ultimatum, it just calls for an action such as, "I don‘t think we‘re a good match" after the first instance and move on.  How long would you tolerate a guy punching you?  If he‘s that disrepectful and you got further into the relationship than that with someone who likes to flirt, well shame on you.

I tried sending a poem once to my girlfriend.  It started of like this:

There was a young girl from Nantucket...

She didn‘t like it much.

How about trying to find out a few things:

What KIND of porn is he looking at?

What does he fantasize about when he‘s looking at it?

Are there things they are doing in the porn that he would like to do for real?

How far are you willing to go to satisfy those desires?

Or, you can just decide that porn is not acceptable to you and never will be.  If that‘s true then you and he are both better off going your own ways.

PSST.....

Just so you know, we‘re ALL shopaholics whether we want to admit it or not.  If you don‘t think so, go to the mall and see how many guys can walk past the electronics store without stopping...

My question is:

Do you really think things are going to be WORSE in your life without him around?  If so, you need to work on your life and your self-esteem.  It really doesn‘t matter so much whether your kids like him or not.  Is this the kind of man you want your kids to have as a role model?

If you want help, help yourself.  Start working on building a better life than what you have now for your sake as well as the kids.

...or alternatively, you can stay mired in the mess and live your life on the false hope that things are going to change for the better.  Wanna buy some swampland?

Thanks Pandora,

I‘m glad you are open enough to at least try.  My suspicion is, however, that he‘s still not being completely open with you about it.  The reason I say that is that you‘ve only talked about it once and that was a month ago.  I‘m guessing it‘s a sore subject.  And it‘s a sore subject, and he‘s hiding it, because he feels ashamed.  I think it takes a careful touch to get him to believe he can truly be honest with you about it.

Personally, I think you‘ve really got to press the limit here and shock him into believing that NOTHING he could tell you would make you think less of him..but be prepared to stand behind that.

He‘s got needs and he‘s got desires.  The fact that he looks at other women and fantasizes about them is not the same as acting on it.  Try to make him feel like it‘s okay and you don‘t mind it, you just want to participate.  Don‘t take what he‘s told you a month ago as the whole truth because I don‘t think he‘s ready to tell you yet.

How much do you know about porn in general?  All of the different categories of porn?  What kind of porn does he most enjoy watching?  Maybe you can find some way to participate in his "hobby" to make him feel less intimidated.

I‘m just guessing, but I‘m speaking from what might prompt me as a man to open up about it.

I‘m glad your getting on with your life.  However, I‘d suggest really being truthful with yourself about why it‘s so important to you to "expose" him.  Is it really about alerting other women, or simply wanting to somehow "hurt him back?"

Be honest.  It‘s not likely you‘re going to hurt him any more than you‘ll hurt yourself by looking like the "vengeful ex."  By doing so you risk your credibility and it‘s not worth it.  Moving on with your life is not about worrying about your ex‘s life, it‘s about worrying about yours.  He will either be a good father or he won‘t.  You can‘t change that.  Only he can change that.  You are in control of ONE THING ONLY, and that‘s how you live YOUR life.  You can have some affect on your children‘s life if they are young enough, but you cannot change or have an affect on another adult‘s life, and shouldn‘t.  They are free to make their choices just like you.

Forget it.  Move on.  If he doesn‘t live up to his responsibilities, do what you have to do to at least make sure he supports his kids monetarily.  It‘s aggravating, I know, I‘ve been there with my ex.  But he‘s the one that‘s sacrificing his relationship with his kids, and will have to deal with their apathy towards him in the future.

Okay...so in the sake of fairness we should add the following to the list of "If Women Ruled The World"

1-There would be no detour signs at construction sites.  Instead it would say, "If you really cared about me you‘d know what to do."

2-We would all still be deeply involved in discussing what to do about the "Y2K Computer Problem" and how it makes us all FEEL.

3-Nagging, Griping, and Whining would actually change things.

4-Engaged men would no longer be able to refer to their fiance‘s as "Ms Right."  Instead they‘d have to refer to them by their FULL name, "Ms ALWAYS Right".

5-The word "Sex" would be replaced in the dictionary with the word "EWWWWWWWWWWW."

6-Parts of cars would be renamed to "thingies", and "whatchamacallits".

There...does that equal things out now??

One thing for sure...well proven...men are much more stimulated by visual and auditory senses than are women who are more stimulated by emotional clues.

To me, it‘s only "degrading" if it‘s for real.  I think of it more as role playing.  Yes, sometimes a man wants a woman to be submissive to him, but that‘s a role...not the way things really are in everyday life.  If you don‘t think a man is "role playing" when he sets up a romantic evening with music, candles and such, you‘re fooling yourself.  He‘s doing that for YOU.  I don‘t view that as degrading as much as it is trying to address what we know the woman wants.  So what‘s wrong with the reverse?

BTW...there‘s PLENTY of successful porn in the category of "Amateurs"..and believe me, most of them aren‘t beauty queens.  But they are portraying a fantasy that many men like.  What‘s that old saying?  "Men want their mom in the kitchen and a slut in the bedroom."  There‘s a certain amount of truth to that I guess.

I think what the Doctor‘s recommending is spot on.  A couple of observations, though...

There have been a few comments in this thread about competing with the women in porn.  Men understand that porn is not reality.  In all likelihood, when your man is looking at porn he‘s probably projecting himself, and maybe even you, into the fantasy being created by the porn.  That‘s why you need to talk about it in depth with him.  He‘s not likely to open up to you about it easily, so you‘ve got to make him not feel threatened...and that could take a few tries.  Try to get below the surface of "watching porn" to find out what he‘s fantasizing about when he watches the porn.  That will tell you more about what‘s REALLY going on and whether or not there‘s something you can work with, or something you can‘t work with (past the line).

One other note, if his fantasies are "past the line" of what you‘re willing to do, understand that‘s a real line you‘ve drawn in the sand and you‘re going to have to live with it.  It‘s not likely that just because his desires exceed what you‘re willing to do that he‘s going to back off of those desires.  If, for example, he‘s fantasizing about having you and another woman at the same time and you tell him you could never do that, he will continue to want that and seek it out either in porn, real life, or both.  So draw that line carefully and make sure it‘s truly the line beyond which there is no hope.

Hmmmmmm...

Seems to me you‘ve talked to just about everyone about this problem other than the ONE person that could give you an answer to his behavior.....HIM.

How about a little less conspiring and third party therapy and a little more directness and honesty and see where that leads??  I mean, if you can‘t be open and honest and lay the cards on the table then what makes you think there could be any kind of relationship with this guy anyway?

I suspect if you look at your divorce settlement papers you will find that you are listed as the "primary residential custodian."  That means your child primarily lives with you.  Typically visitation is specified under it‘s own category.  Just because you are the residential custodian doesn‘t automatically give you total authority over visitation, particularly if you try to circumvent any specified court-ordered visitiation.  There‘ve been more than a few custodial parents who have lost custody pulling stunts like that.

If you need more enforcement of visitation then get a new support/visitation agreement put together that has more specifics.

I don‘t know what planet you live on, but here on earth unless it can be proven beyond any doubt that the CHILD would be in danger, there‘s not much chance of any judge denying visitation.

All we‘re talking about here are threats and harrassment with the parent.  That‘s a separate issue and doesn‘t affect the child unless the child is exposed to it...in which case it‘s BOTH parent‘s responsibility to keep those type of disagreements away from the child.

Shiiannye:

I‘m hoping you can get things into perspective through all of this.  I think you‘re on the right track in going to the prosecutor for a protective order, and if you follow that up with a more specific visitation agreement I think you‘ll have made significant progress in putting this kind of nonsense behind you.

Some perspective, however.  Your son is 16, and because of that you have to account for what HE wants as well.  Count your blessings.  When I was going through all of this I had 15 and 13 year old boys who I couldn‘t PAY to visit their mom.  And when they finally did I could pretty well count on her bringing them back in the middle of the night because they were too "out of hand" for her to deal with.  At least your son wants a relationship with BOTH of you and that‘s a VERY POSITIVE THING.

As far as him being exposed to a dysfunctional family, that is all up to you and your ex.  He doesn‘t have to be.  Believe me, my divorce was as dysfunctional as anyone‘s, but by and large my son‘s weren‘t involved in any of the dysfunction.  Whatever problems you have with your ex or his girlfriend are YOUR business...NOT your son‘s.  And believe me when I tell you it‘s not beyond your son at age 16 to try and "light your fire" about things going on when he‘s with his dad or dad‘s girlfriend.  It is VERY important you take the high road and whatever comments your son might make, DON‘T REACT TO THEM IN FRONT OF HIM.  A simple, "hmmmmm" is all that‘s needed and then take it up with his father.  Hopefully you have a standard statement in your divorce agreement saying that neither parents will make disparaging remarks about the other in front of the child.  You may have to modify that to add something like, "both parents will be responsible to ensure that the child is not exposed to negative statements regarding the other parent by themselves or anyone that comes into contact with the child while in their custody."

You may find out that your son may try to play you and dad against each other for his own purposes.  Don‘t let that happen.  Keep him out of it and settle things appropriately either through a family lawer and/or criminal lawer for protective orders.

I have no problem being brutally honest about my cheating situation, but I wouldn‘t count it as something that‘s typical.  Espcially given your situation.

If you had a 20 on/off pursuit with a guy that like to play around with lots of women, his reason for cheating is very likely to be different than mine as I never fit that category.  I have always, including my teenage years, been more comfortable in a committed, singular relationship than "playing the field."  My only cheating took place when I was young, under 33, so for the most part I write it off to immaturity as past that age I never considered cheating on my partner.  In every case, I also was the one to break off the cheating relationship due to my conscience getting the better of me.

Why did I cheat in the first place...as best I can tell it was for the excitement, and I think that relates to why it appealed to me as a younger man.  I think as you get older you tend to not seek out dangerous and exciting behaviors like you do when you‘re young.  Don‘t get me wrong, I still like doing things that are exciting and somewhat dangerous, but not things that could potentially have a negative effect on someone else.

In your case, however, I don‘t think a lot of what I have to say applies.  If he was a "player" that‘s a different category of person.  I would think that would be a great indicator that they‘re not likely to be very loyal.  I know some guys that are like that, but quite frankly, I just don‘t get it.  I‘ve never gotten that.

Okay...I‘ll bite.  I‘ll give you the testosterone version of family christmas since it‘s really just me and my boys (22 and 20).

The only thing I really MUST do every year and have for the last 6 year is go on the toy ride with Jim‘s Harley Davidson in St. Pete.  This year we had over 3 1/2 miles of bikes!!!  There‘s nothing quite like that.

Other than that, the boys and I will go out shooting probably today.  We‘ll open presents on Christmas Eve so we can go skiing on Christmas Day up here in North Carolina.  I did put a tree up at home, but only half the lights worked...but hey, we got a tree!!

So now you get to see the "other" (read estrogen-free) side of Christmas, huh??

Yeah..truth and honesty are pretty overrated, huh?  Good thing you‘re not expecting truth and honesty out of him either, right???

Not trying to be a jerk, but are you guys listening to yourselves?  I‘m sure you would get upset if a guy misrepresented himself to you, but here you are conspiring to misrepresent yourself to him.

And people wonder why I chose my name.....

I‘ll agree that you are walking a tightrope here.  On one hand you need to have some stability both in your life and in your son‘s life.  On the other hand, every action you take trying to achieve that goal is going to be perceived by your ex and his g/f as trying to reak havok in thier lives.

There‘s an old saying, "perception IS reality" meaning that if your ex perceives that you are doing these things to be vindictive and invasive in his life, his reactions will be based on that perception.  And you have to live with the REALITY of his perceptions.

My only advise is based on what worked in my situation.  My ex and I agreed that our only reason for having any contact with each other was if it had to do with the "business" of raising our sons.  Right now you have a problem with that business in that there needs to be some predictability and consistency in how and when visitations occur.  Children operate best when their world is predictable and managed.  They become problematic when they are surrounded with chaos.  I‘d suggest trying to calmy explain to your ex that you are more than happy that he‘s moving on and you want to do so as well, but as parents you BOTH need to get this situation ironed out with your son, not only for HIS good, but to better enable both of you to seek out your own lives in peace.  If he can see that is the answer to "getting you out of his life" he may be more open to working this out.

As far as your son coming home with gifts from dad, I think you need to understand that is not a swipe at you.  That‘s Dad trying to make up to his son for not being able to be there all the time for him.  That‘s a good and positive thing for your son.  Be happy for him.

I still say your hubby responded with the easiest, although crudest, answer he could give you to get out of the conversation about porn.  It‘s obvious he doesn‘t think before he says things which is a good clue that he‘s not being totally honest about why he looks at the porn.

TO REITERATE...forget about the women in the porn.  They are not real.  Us guys KNOW they are not real.  It‘s not about what the porn stars look like as much as what the porn starts are representing in terms of sexual freedom and openness.  If you want to resolve this you have to get past the "losing 10 pounds" crap and start figuring out what FIX he‘s getting from the porn.  There‘s no reason you can‘t be his personal porn star if you‘re willing.  If you‘re not willing, then you have to accept the fact that if you‘re not filling those desires he‘s going to go to the one place he feels he can get them fulfilled.

Isn‘t youth wonderful?  You‘re willing to accept the most improbably situations as a possibility.

Aside from the obvious skepticism regarding youth, I can‘t even begin to recount the number of times I‘ve seen this with all ages.  I guess it‘s just a part of our internet age.

Time for a reality check.  I don‘t know if "A" is into you or not, I do know that guys tend to be more pragmatic about their situations than women are.  If I were to place myself in "A"s mind I would probably be hearing things like, "yeah, she‘s great, but I don‘t see how we could ever work out this distance thing."  To you, that may seem like something you could overcome, but to him it probably isn‘t..and that‘s what holds him back from taking it much further.

There are HUGE impediments to long-distance romances and for the sake of your sanity you may want to really think seriously about how realistic it is to think it could really work.  I‘m not saying they can‘t work.  I have personal acquaintances that did make it work...although not from across the ocean.  But it basically meant that one person had to pretty much leave their life behind to be with the other person.  Are you prepared to do that for him?  Would he be prepared to do that for you?

GUT-CHECK TIME!!!

I guess I have a problem here understanding what you‘re asking.  You started this thread wanting to know why men cheat.  But the questions you‘re asking now seem to be more along the lines of why did this guy lead you on to believe there was something going on when he really had no intention of pursuing a relationship.  That‘s not cheating, that‘s either being dishonest, or not being forthcoming about his intentions.

The fact is, I don‘t know if you were mislead or not.  For him to have intentionally mislead you would mean that he would have to have known BEFORE he started up with you that he wasn‘t going to take it any further, and I suggest that you don‘t know that.  You only know how he acted and not what he was thinking.

He may very well have been thinking that maybe he could build something with you, and then after getting together with you had a change of heart.  What he‘s guilty of in that case is not being a snake, but rather not being man enough about the situation to discuss it with you.

No one here can give you a clear answer to what you‘re asking because you haven‘t really shared all the facts of the situation.  From what little I can piece together it sounds like this guy, who you‘ve had a 20 year flirtation with, more or less had a mid-life crisis and ended up leaving his wife and hooking up with you only to figure out that wasn‘t what he was looking for.  I don‘t know if that‘s true or not, but from what I can piece together that‘s my impression.

Uhh..last time I checked it wasn‘t Christmas yet.  Did I oversleep?

Will reserve comments until after Christmas and no presents...

FROM A GUYS PERSPECTIVE:

Look at it this way, he just took the most expensive and painful way of getting his laundry done.

I don‘t know where you‘re getting your information here, but it‘s not correct.  Under the Solders and Sailors Civil Relief Act (SSCRA), military personell are protected from court and civil actions while deployed.  Child support should be handled as an administrative action and is therefore not protected.  You need to read the following link:

http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/programs/cse/fct/militaryguide2000.htm#relief

As a prior military person I can guarantee you his commanders will hold him accountable for supporting his children, or they will make his life in the military a living hell.

blue:

Don‘t beat yourself up over this.  Life comes in two flavors, lessons learned and best practices.  You just got the lessons learned flavor.

If you want to come out of this with something positive then instead of focusing on your anger try examining your actions and what you might have done better.  What clues were there that this might happen?  What might you have done differently?  How will you handle something like this in the future?  Be brutally honest with yourself about your choices and try to learn from them.  At least then you will walk away from a bad situation with something you can use next time...a lesson learned.

If all you want is, "you go girl, stick with it, everything is going to work out fine, just believe in yourself and the relationship" we can tell you that, but it probably isn‘t true.  But if you‘d like, we‘ll lie to you if that will make you feel better.

If, on the other hand, you want to try and get this situation into perspective so you can examine it critically to see if it‘s going to work out for you, then you‘ve come to the right place.  You posted this in Ask A Guy.  We‘re giving you a guy‘s response.  When there‘s a problem, guys tend to want to fix it...not just commiserate and give moral support.

I can tell you right now with a pretty high degree of certainty, your guy is dealing with the practical issues of this long-distance relationship and that‘s why he‘s reticent to make a big commitment here.  That‘s to his credit.  If he were just playing you then he‘d tell you it‘s all going to work out fine, knowing full well he has no intention of moving overseas, or having you move to where he‘s at.

The "Love overcomes all obstacles" theme only works in the movies.  You have a BIG obstacle here.  You guys are not even in total agreement that you‘re a couple yet, and you have to be a couple, or desire to BE a couple, before you really start looking at how you will be able to deal with this whole distance thing in a realistic manner.

Denying there‘s a problem doesn‘t make the problem go away.

You might be surprised at the number of guys that feel the same way about the women they‘ve been with.  I‘m beginning to think that no one understands the whole concept of an "equal" relationship.  It‘s more like, "equal, as long as I get things done my way" or "equal as long as you recognize I‘m always right and your always wrong."

As for me, my moment of brilliance came when I asked myself, "what exactly am I getting out of this relationship?"  I could easily see what was in it for my g/f, but I had a hard time figuring out what was in it for me.  I guess I learned to ask that question of myself at the BEGINNING of a relationship rather than after 4 or 5 years.

As far as the poster who‘s back on the dating sites...good luck..you‘ll need it.

If you want to know why all the old guys are bothering you, it‘s because the women their age are only looking for younger guys.  Sad...but true.

Personally, I do it because I can‘t stand the thought of those poor retailers not making money.

Also, it‘s fun to watch the cats when they get tangled up in the christmas decorations....

+10000

Hope he‘s paying child support.  If not, I suspect it‘s going to be REALLY hard to have a reasonable relationship with this guy once he‘s shelling out $$$ from his paycheck.

Personal advice...take the $$$ over the reasonable relationship.

What appears ignorant would be to classify everyone that looks at porn as sexually sick and incapable of an "emotionally mature" sexual relationship.  Of course it‘s no secret that most women get their sexual gratification from feelings of emotional closeness during sex, so anyone that seeks anything less than that is sick and in need of treatment.

Kind of leaves the guy asking himself, "what‘s in this relationship for me?"  Good reason to take a hike and find someone more responsive to his needs.

Welcome to paradise Freak!!!!

Hopefully you‘re past your a$$ that got you out here and are enjoying everything the area has to offer.  I‘ve been down here since 1995 and the only way they‘re taking me outta here is on a slab!!!

BTW...I‘m not beefing on anyone for talking things over with friends.  I guess I just come from a background where if you‘ve got a problem with someone, you deal with them directly.  I‘m from Texas originally, so maybe it‘s just a Texan thing???

Hopefully history will write this woman off as someone to be ignored and forgotten...just like Tookie Williams.

How many men in this world do you think could get acquitted of manslaughter or arson by claiming they were the victim of migraine headaches that forced them to commit the crimes?  If PMS is truly that much of a danger to society then the only answer is to pass a law that requires women who suffer PMS to be confined every 28 days for a period of a week to keep society safe.

How about a little sympathy for the REAL VICTIMS of these crimes that can‘t speak for themselves!!!!!!

On the other hand, I guess a guy could kill his wife and claim self-defense based on the fact she was PMS‘ing and cite these as case law references.

Here‘s what Christmas is REALLY about!!!

CHRISTMAS LIGHTS!!

This guys has WAAAAAAAAAAY too much time on his hands...

http://planetvids.com/html/Best-Christmas-Light-Display.html

The truth about Dr Phil is FINALLY revealed!!

Okay...time for me to chime in again.

I absolutely agree that this thread has gone WAY off target.  We were originally talking about a guy who‘s using porn in the place of his wife.

ANYTHING can be an addiction, booze, drugs, shopping, men-hating (sadnomore) LOL j/k.  Just because someone drinks on the weekend doesn‘t mean they‘re an alcoholic, so I think it‘s important not to jump to the classification of ADDICTION..because that‘s pretty extreme.  Addictive behavior is typically much more pronounced than what appears to be happening here.

I don‘t get the sense that the original posters SO is sacrificing everything in his life to be with his porn.  She says he‘s a decent guy generally, but this is one area that has become problematic.  I still go back to the Mars & Venus thing.  Men are more stimulated by their senses (particularly auditory and visual) than are women.  That‘s why the VAST majority of porn is purchased by men and is MADE for men.  Like anything else it can be abused.  It‘s like saying guns are bad because they kill people.  I have owned NUMEROUS guns and they have NEVER jumped up by themselves and shot anyone.  A gun in the wrong hands, however, is deadly.

Porn is not inherently wrong.  The way porn is used may be unhealthy...as is the case here.

I NEVER advocated it‘s HARMLESS in this situation, I advocated that it‘s an indication there‘s something missing in this guy‘s life that he‘s trying to fulfill through both porn AND talking with other women on line.  If you have a car, and it‘s making noises, but you like the car, you try and diagnose where the problem is so you can do something about it.

Is it unhealthy that the original poster‘s SO is using porn in her place?  Absolutely.  That doesn‘t mean it can‘t be fixed if she can get to the bottom of what need he‘s trying to fulfill.  I think his comment to her about her weight is BS.  He took the easy route rather than talking about the problem.  He‘s not likely doing this to HURT her, at best you can say he‘s self-medicating a problem.

Porn and talking with women online is not the diagnosis...it‘s the symptom.

You‘re more than welcome.  A couple of tips here.

Make sure you are armed with chapter and verse of the SSCRA when you talk or correspond with anyone.  If you are getting the runaround from his commander, tell him from your research you don‘t believe he‘s correct and you‘d like to escalate this problem to whoever he reports to.  That will most likely get the commander off his dead ass.  If not, use the military structure to your advantage.  Keep going up the chain of command and making your case.

Same is true for state workers.  They are, after all, state workers so they don‘t have a clue, so be armed with chapter and verse of SSCRA and show them.  State workers, just like the military, have a chain of command.  USE it!!!  If you‘re not satisfied with the answer you‘re given keep asking to talk with the next level supervisor.

You are in the right!!  Under NO circumstances should someone in the military (or anywhere else for that matter) be able to get away with not providing for their children.  Keep focused.  This is not about you.  This is not about his other children with other women.  This is ONLY about YOUR CHILD!!!  This is about making sure his child receives the support it is lawfully due.  CHILD SUPPORT IS THE RIGHT OF THE CHILD.  You are simply speaking for the child who cannot speak for themselves in demanding their rights.

Hey...it could have been worse.  What if it had been Walt Disney‘s "Herculese"....then you‘d have something to REALLY be worried about!!!!

To the original poster, whatever you do, don‘t read the thread in the AskAGuy area about porn.  That‘s gotten WAY off track and is probably not going to give you much value in the dealing with this.

However, I am going to re-state here what I said there.  This is an indicator...a symptom of the problem.  It is not the problem itself.  He‘s using this behavior to compensate for something he feels is missing, and the only way you can find out what that is is to talk with HIM about it.

Fortunately, he doesn‘t seem to be too embarrassed about having been caught so he may be more open to talking with you.  I‘d suggest you try and find out what kind of porn he‘s looking at and what he‘s fantasizing about when he‘s looking at it.  It may be something you‘re willing to do with him but he‘s too embarrassed to ask you to do.  You never know.

Try as best you can not to make him feel guilty about it or give him the feeling you are judging him.  Come at it with a sense of curiosity.  If you can get him to open up about what his desires are and feel safe, you may actually be able to use it as a stimulus to a better sex life.  Why would he need porn if he can fulfill his desires with you?

I think there‘s ample control issues from all sides going around on this one, so I wouldn‘t play that game.

You don‘t have to go through a full-fledged divorce, you can also seek a legal separation which might not be a bad idea in this case.  First, in spite of what the hospital told you, YOU are the one accountable for his care and LIABLE for the decisions regarding his care at this point.  It would also ensure that he‘s still legally responsible for the support of his kids.  It would put you on the spot for your fair share of responsibility for their support, as well as fully responsible for your own support.  But that still might be preferable to the chaos that‘s happening now.

All that being said, it removes all of this mess from the realm of personalities and control into the more disciplined environment of the legal system and removes some particularly nasty situations you could find yourself in if there were a conflict between you and his mom regarding his care were he to try this again.

Hopefully your state has a mediation process which you could use to make your demands regarding counseling.  This doesn‘t mean the marriage is over, but it certainly sends a message to everyone involved (including Mom) that this is going to be handled between the only two people that should be involved in this decision, and handled in a legally responsible and non-chaotic manner.

Thank you LittleMiss for your vote of confidence.

I can‘t say that there won‘t be times in the future you might want to give me the village idiot award at some point, but I do promise you I will always speak my mind.

I can say that I‘ve enjoyed posting here and intend to continue to do so.  I think it‘s important on a site like this for everyone to recognize we‘re only hearing one side of any story we hear.  Being a guy, maybe I can occassionally give some hint as to what the other side of the story is.

I also want to give fair warning that I have no intention of coddling any women, or men here.  If I see BS, I call BS.  I don‘t give special dispensation to women just because they are women, and I don‘t give special dispensation to guys just because they‘re being jackasses either.  Granted there are grey areas in life, but some areas are pretty black and white.

In my book communication wins over cheating every time.  If some guy dumps you because he wants to be with another woman, I‘ll give him a BIG thumbs up (as long as he wasn‘t cheating with her before hand).  He at least was mature enough to be upfront about what he wants, regardless of how it might hurt.  That doesn‘t make him a jerk, that makes him a hero.

You‘re also going to find out I have ZERO tolerence for any parent that doesn‘t put the welfare of their child first.  I WAS a single parent raising two boys (who are now adults) so I know that world very clearly.  But putting your child first, in my opinion, is WAY more than child support.  It‘s about teaching them through YOUR example of how to handle difficult situations.  If you argue with your ex in front of your kids YOU DESERVE THE VILLAGE IDIOT AWARD!!  It‘s about taking whatever steps are necessary to NOT bring them into your relationship problems.  It‘s about being a good role model and minimizing bad role models in their life as best you can.  They learn how to be good parents and good life partners by what they see in Mom and Dad...NEVER FORGET THAT!!!!

Okay...enough for now.  Thanks for welcome.  I‘ll step down offa my soap box......

Well, I‘d say you definately have reasons to be concerned.  Two dates and he‘s falling in love.  Guaranteed I‘d be giving them a wide berth!!!

On the other hand, he may have learned his lesson and that‘s why he‘s calling you back, he realized he overstepped things a bit and wants to start again with a fresh slate.  Maybe you can open up the conversation with him in a more jovial manner such as, "you know, last time we were seeing each other you made me a little bit nervous."  If you think about it, it IS kind of funny.  Ask him if you‘re in love after 2 dates, what it takes to get married...4 dates?  7 dates to start having kids?  Maybe you can make a joke out of it and tell him you like him and would like to continue to see him, but he has to meet a quota of AT LEAST 40 dates before he can say anything like that again!!!

If he doesn‘t get the humor in that he‘s WAY too serious about it!!!

I‘d post my picture in my profile, but it‘s really not necessary.  Just refer to Larry the Cable Guy....that‘s close enuff!!

PERCEPTION IS REALITY

An old saying I‘ve always lived by.  In this case it means you are perceiving there is a problem in the relationship, therefore there IS a problem in the relationship because that will have an effect on how you act toward him.  His reality will be flavored by your perception.

The fact that you feel something is wrong needs to be addressed.  If he values the relationship he should want to get rid of that perception as well, because it IS affecting the relationship.  Trust is the cornerstone of everything.  Destroy the trust, destroy the relationship...and that means his ability to trust you as well.

Spying just exacerbates an already unhealthy trust situation.  Do you think it will IMPROVE things if he finds out you‘re spying on him?  How would you feel if your privacy were invaded?

This is one area I have a real problem with.  Instead of spying why not spend that energy getting him to see that certain things he‘s doing are causing you to question your trust in him.  It‘s affecting your relationship, and it‘s not a minimal thing.  Communication wins over cheating every time and in a way you ARE cheating by invading his privacy without his knowledge.  It‘s called taking the high road, being an adult, and having an intelligent adult conversation about what‘s happening in the relationship.  It‘s NOT about taking another step down the slippery path of destroying openness and trust.

There is a communication technique that IBM developed back in the 60‘s called the Johari Window.  It basically revolves around people responding to trust and openness with trust and openness.  If you were to tell him that you are feeling there‘s something going on, and you want to be able to trust him, and that you considered invading his privacy, but that‘s not right and you want to get things out on the table and talk about them instead, you might be surprised that he might open up as well.  When one person sees the other person is willing to take the risk of opening up something that‘s potentially dangerous, it tends to make them want to open up also and test the "dangerous" waters as well.  The important thing is to keep emotions out of it and talk in a very adult manner about the relationship, what‘s going on, and why you‘re feeling the way you are.

So are you saying PMS is so much worse then it‘s a justifiable excuse to take someone‘s life, or burn someone‘s property down?

Focus please...this is not about PMS versus migraines, it‘s about people using any lame excuse they can come up with to avoid responsibility for unacceptable behaviors.

You don‘t get special dispensation just for being a woman and having PMS.  There was a REAL person, someone‘s father or mother or child that lost their life because this woman had PMS.  Do you think that will console the parents of the person she killed?  There was a real home or car that someone depended on to live in or get to work in that this woman took from them because she didn‘t have enough sense to take a Mydol.

Cut me a break.....

I don‘t think that‘s what I‘m saying at all.  This has less to do with porn and more to do with how a couple in a relationship deal with a problem.

There are two people in this relationship.  There is a problem in the relationship.  If two people put their heads together to try and solve that problem there‘s a greater likelihood of it being fixed.

Or...you can just say..it‘s your problem.  Fix it and get back to me when you‘re done.  In which case, what‘s the value of the relationship in the first place?

STEP ONE: Agree that this a problem in the relationship.

<if both people don‘t agree there‘s a problem...stop here..do not pass GO>

STEP TWO: Explore ways to fix the problem.

Sorry...I don‘t buy "that‘s the way the world works."

I was married for 18 years and in another relationship for 4 years.  Even though those situations didn‘t work out neither I nor they ever felt the need to "snoop" on each other.  I can say without a shred of doubt in my mind, if anyone I was with felt they had to "snoop" into my personal affairs, I would be hurt and disgusted by it to the point that I don‘t think I could continue with the relationship.  And I would expect the same treatment from my SO if I were to snoop.

I can‘t even imagine how hurt my mom or dad (married 60+ years) would be if they were to find out the other was snooping on them, or my sister and her husband (married 30+ years).

The issue here is TRUST, and if that doesn‘t exist in the first place, no amount of snooping is going to ever fix it.  They‘re not magically going to become honest and trustworthy just because you caught them.  And what if, after your snooping, you find out you were wrong?  Are you prepared to come clean with them and apologize...or continue with yet another level of deception?  You want someone in your life who‘s ethical and has good values yet you‘re not willing to demand the same of yourself?  Sorry, having a set of principles and values that you live by isn‘t easy.

You want justification for breaking off a marriage?  How about the fact that you feel so distrustful of him that you feel the need to snoop on him in order to find out the truth?  Who in their right mind wants to live that way?  Do you really want that to be the model you show your kids of how Moms and Dads interact?  And don‘t think for a moment you‘re kids aren‘t aware of it.  They‘re more perceptive than you know.

I don‘t know that I‘d buy the whole "progression" theme except for those individuals that might be afflicted with addictive disorders.

I can only speak for myself here, and I‘m sure guys vary in their attitudes about such things just like women do.  Porn is a fantasy.  I know that.  But it‘s a fantasy can lend a LOT to help turn up the heat on a sexual relationship that‘s been getting boring and average.  I can honestly say that every time I looked at porn I was projecting my SO and myself into that porn in some way..fantasizing about our sex life being more daring.  That‘s what I would get out of it.  Personally, I didn‘t fantasize about a virginal wife at home and a separate LUST object.  I preferred the best of both in one package.  The way the world outside sees her and the way I see her in the bedroom.  I personally think that may be relatively common thus explaining the whole "soccer mom" and MILF stuff that permeates the porn industry these days.

I‘ve never been interested in going to strip clubs, or picking up a hooker.  That‘s not even in the same category as porn.  There‘s no illusions there, no fantasy.  It‘s about girls shaking their booty or doing things for money.  I‘ve been to strip clubs of course, but they did nothing for me.

Is that normal or even common?  I have no clue.  I‘ve heard the same thing about Elvis Presley, but I never experienced it.  I don‘t know of anyone else that‘s experienced that either...not that I‘m sure any one of my friends would admit it if they did.

I think it‘s definately true that guys need a different type of stimulus than do women for the most part, and porn helps to fill that stimulus and fantasy world to some degree.

+1000

It still comes back to the same thing.  As brutal as it sounds, if you both can‘t agree there‘s a problem, you‘ve got no chance of fixing it, and if you can‘t fix it then you either accept living with the frustration, or move on.

If one person in a relationship has a problem, the relationship has a problem.  The fact that one or the other doesn‘t see or admit it‘s a problem is irrelevant.  It‘s a problem because both people are not happy, and both people have to be happy in any relationship for it to be worth staying in.

There is no such thing as a one-sided fix.  That only leads to MORE resentment and problems in the future.  So if you can‘t get past step one (getting agreement that there‘s a problem), cut your losses, move on and make a better choice next time.  The better choice being someone that is willing to accept that NO ONE is perfect (including YOU) and sometimes everyone has to be open to admitting they have a problem and be willing to work on it.

By the way, this isn‘t just a MAN thing either.  I had 18 years of marriage to a woman that was NEVER able to say "I‘m Sorry" or "I was wrong" about anything.  To some people admitting to making mistakes or problems suggests weakness.

I don‘t have any particular problem with Dr Phil other than the fact that he sometimes "panders" too much to the women‘s point of view in order to build and maintain his audience.  (Case in point:  "When Mamma ain‘t happy, ain‘t no one happy"....hmm what about when Dad‘s not happy?)  I even bought a Dr Phil book for my son last year as I felt it offered some very good advice.

Hint:   Don‘t confuse humor with reality.

I find it a bit unplausible that an employer would take the time to research sites like this looking for information on someone they were considering hiring.  If you read the testimonials they are saying they "know" it was because of what was said about them on the sight.  I suspect if you got to the truth of the matter there were more significant factors that were the reasons for them not being hired.

Quite frankly, you‘re crazy if you take ANYTHING you read on the internet as gospel....particularly if it‘s posted anonymously.  Why hide your name if you‘re only speaking the truth?

I absolutely agree that a lot of women come and post out of anger.  I also think it‘s important for everyone here and on other similar sites to realize we‘re only hearing one side of the story before passing judgement abaout a situation.

While Dr Dalton may have made a contribution to women‘s health, the problem I have is the original article crediting her for getting the two women acquitted due to PMS.

This site itself is about holding people accountable for their actions.  PMS is no more a viable defense for committing a felony than is a guy saying he‘s not understood at home being a viable defense for cheating.  If PMS is debilitating to the point that the person could be a danger to society, then it‘s a viable argument for having someone committed.  It‘s a double-edged sword.

But then again, my opinions may be flavored by the fact I was born in Texas.  We have a predelection toward hanging criminals from trees....

What I‘m not clear on is why you are talking to a prosecutor?  Are you trying to press charges on him?  If your point is to protect yourself then all that should be required is a protective order, and probably a mutual protective order at that.  To my knowledge that only involves a judge, not a prosecutor (in Virginia your mileage may vary).  And with all the crap going on between the two of you I can‘t see why any judge would deny that if not just for the sake of maintaining the peace.

From the sounds of things (the car, the mortgage, various legal actions etc.) I can understand how he might feel like you‘re harrassing him and being vindictive and invasive in his new life with his girlfriend and is responding by harrassing you.  I‘m not saying whether or not the actions you‘re taking are viable, I wouldn‘t know that, I‘m just saying there‘s a pattern here of constant entanglement.  A vicious cycle.  You take action on him which prompt him to harrass you.

As was stated earlier, verbal and emotional abuse is not a cause for legal action.  The fact that you are scared it MIGHT turn into physical abuse is cause for a protective order, but nothing more.  We don‘t arrest people in this country for things they MIGHT do and we certainly don‘t arrest them for things they say (reference the First Amendment).

Bottom line, I think a mutual protective order limiting BOTH of you from contacting the other would be a GREAT idea.  I doubt seriously he‘d have any problem with that as well.  Because there‘s a child and visitation involved you would need to work out an amicable way for exchanges to take place.  If nothing else it can be done at a police station, although that‘s pretty sad for your child if that‘s all you can work out.  It‘s better if you can do it through a mutual friend or family member.

That depends on what you use it for.  Macs are better at some things than are PCs, and PCs are better at some things than are Macs.

If ease of operation is your main concern and you don‘t typically share a lot of information with other people or need to share info between work and home then the Macs a good choice.

If compatibility with other computers and you have the need for a wide variety of software and hardware, and easy access to maintenance, then the PC wins.

I‘m not completely sure I buy that, although I don‘t want to be hypocritical because I can‘t say that I lived it.

My last G/F was an alcoholic.  It was a problem for me and my family.  I made the decision that the relationship was not worth the pain of either enduring it, or of trying to get her to seek treatment.  She didn‘t really see it as a problem.  But I could envision, were I to view the relationship as having more of a future, and this being the single most prominent impediment to continuing the relationship, GIVEN THAT SHE RECOGNIZED IT AS A PROBLEM, I‘d do whatever it would take to help her through recovery.  Attend the meetings with her, find ways to distract her from it, find people to hang out with that don‘t drink...so on.

I don‘t see that this question regarding porn and alcoholism are terribly different.  I think it basically boils down to the scope of the problem.  You‘re right in saying it‘s a problem when it begins to affect your (and other people‘s) life.  But I‘m not sure that‘s a black and white thing...more shades of gray.  How much of an effect is it having?  How severe is the problem?  I think all those things factored into my decision that it wasn‘t worth it.  But I could see how a different set of circumstances might draw me to a different conclusion.

Obviously you don‘t frequent the bars south of the border...

http://www.minibite.com/funstuff/tequila.htm

Career won‘t progress beyond Senator from Massachusetts

My favorite!!!

Very good advice Rhiannon.

I think one of the toughest things people have to overcome in divorces is taking that step to cut off contact and hold to it, especially when there‘s a lot of bitterness involved.  I‘m sure there are divorces that are less contentious, but there are always hard feelings and unresolved issues that will continue to cause problems unless communication is ended.

Once you make that break it‘s amazing how much easier things become!!!!

I will agree the Navy kind of likes playing by their own rules from time to time...something to do with their "heritage" of being the oldest branch of the armed forces.  They do have to abide by the rules established by the DoD so I don‘t think you‘ll have any problem once you get to the right people.

As for wigging out...sorry..I don‘t buy that and I never did.  It always amazed me that the people claiming to be affected most by combat stress were the ones that saw the least combat.

If anything I‘d bet on the fact that once he left home and his world got a little bigger he might have decided he wasn‘t happy with the way his life was going and felt the need to change it.  I used to see that a lot in people that got deployed overseas for the first time, especially younger ones, both men AND women.

I don‘t understand!!

I took the test and when I asked for the results it automatically posted my picture to the sexual predator database!!!

sheesh.....

I don‘t understand all the Bush bashing...

C‘mon..if you had a mentally challenged child you‘d still love ‘em, right??

First, Pnai: Congratulations on at least being adult enough to admit to your failures in this situation.

Second, Raven:  I‘m sorry you had to endure those kind of hardships.

That all being said, however.....

Despite what Raven says, men are not inherently evil anymore than black people are inherently criminal or mexicans are lazy.  There is not a single person on this site that hasn‘t endured some kind of pain in their relationships.  That‘s why we‘re here.  But it‘s important to remember there are hundreds of thousands of people that are in good relationships that work.  The type of people we are, or become, is measured by how we react to and learn from the difficult times in our lives...and we have a choice and total control over that.  You choose to become bitter, or vengeful.  But if you do then those people that brought misery into your life have won, because YOU allowed them to make you an unpleasant and narrow-minded person.

I‘m a big believer that life comes to you in two flavors:  Lessons Learned and Best Practices.  So if you have some difficulties in your life or relationship it‘s time to take a break and examine what you‘ve learned from it.  Otherwise your simply going to keep repeating those same mistakes over and over again.  It‘s not as easy as it sounds though because you have to peel back the onion and get to the root cause if you really want to learn.

Was his cheating and your cheating the root cause, or was it a symptom of something deeper?  Clearly, there‘s an underlying reason why both of you would cheat on each other.  What differentiates your relationships and your choices in a mate from the people that have good relationships?  Why does theirs work and yours doesn‘t?  What are their "Best Practices"?

At this exact moment in time, Pnai, you are at the end of a cycle.  You will make a choice in this instant to learn from your situation and continue with the choices that can eventually turn you bitter or make you a stronger and better person who will attract stronger and better people.

One thing I do know from examining relationships that work is this:  GOOD PEOPLE ATTRACT GOOD PEOPLE.  You can‘t control anyone else‘s actions, only your own.  If you spend your time picking at the faults of other people that caused your problem, you‘re not spending the time to better yourself.  Concentrate your efforts on becoming the best person YOU can be, understand what you did wrong, and correct it and you will eventually find someone that deserves you and you deserve them because neither of you are not so arrogant as to believe you don‘t have room for improvement.  If both of you approach life with that same regard you‘ll be one of the Best Practices that everyone else refers to.

I, for one, refuse to be bitter.  I don‘t like being around bitter people and since I have to live with myself for the rest of my life....well..you get the picture.

Personally, I‘d rather learn from the past, blow it off to experience, and move on....and learn to be happy with myself.  Who cares if another relationship comes along or not...I‘m happy either way.

Hey!!!  I like to dance!!!

Well...I call it dancing...my doctor calls it a seizure....

OMG!!!!!

I just googled TiredOfWomen and it came up with some guy that belongs to a gay site called JustUsBoys!!!!!

Guess I shoulda checked that before choosing my name...

By that same standard Raven, I would be classifying myself as not a good person either.

I made some bad choices, so have you, and so has Pnai that doesn‘t make bad people..it makes us people who have room for improvement.  You can write off the fact that you were in an abusive relationship as the reason for all the problems, or you can recognize there‘s a deeper challenge that involves understanding WHY and HOW you ended up in the situation you were in.

Maybe you didn‘t specifically state men are evil, but if you re-read what you wrote, you did draw some pretty broad characterizations.  I haven‘t had much luck with women in my life either, but I try very hard not to fall into the trap of characterizing all women with the same deficiencies as I‘ve experienced in my life.  The fact is, I wasn‘t perfect either.  And the more I try to place the blame on my partners for their faults the more likely I am not to recognize and fix the problems I was causing for myself.

Bottom line, I made my own choices about who to be with.  If that was a bad choice then shame on me.  I can cry about how bad it was and be bitter about it or I can chose to fix whatever deficiencies I had that led or contributed to it and hopefully find a better life for myself.  I chose to fix it.  That‘s all I‘m saying.

It‘s no mystery to guys what to say if they want to get through to you.  Go onto any dating site and read the synopsis most of the women post there about what they‘re looking for in a guy and what they want in a relationship.

Try counting the number of "long, moonlit walks on the beach" and "cozy up on the couch and watch a movie" references there are.

Okay...here‘s a hint.  If you have a choice between one guy that says, "let‘s go for a walk on the beach" and one that says "let‘s go out to the beach and do some night fishing", pick the guy that wants to fish.  At least he‘s being honest!!!!

sadnomore wrote:

TiredOfWomen wrote: OMG!!!!! I just googled TiredOfWomen and it came up with some guy that belongs to a gay site called JustUsBoys!!!!! Guess I shoulda checked that before choosing my name... I thought you were gay?? wtf????

HEY!!!!  THAT‘S NOT FUNNY!

You‘d better watch it or I‘ll hit you with my purse!!

You probably won‘t like my answer, but here goes anyway:

You‘re simply inviting trouble back into your life by getting involved in this.  You risk his girlfriend considering you to be a trouble-maker and opening up problems with her.  He‘s left you alone, but you‘re causing problems for him.  There‘s a high likelihood he‘ll retaliate in some way.  If you have no proof of his escort visits you could even be subject to civil actions for slander.  Worse yet, it‘s been two years.  People change over time.  How would you feel if after bringing this up to his girlfriend you find out he‘s tried to change his life in a positive way and put all of that behind him and here you are slinging dirt from the past?

Why risk any of that?  Hopefully you‘ve gotten on with your life and he‘s gotten on with his.  Leave it that way.  Life has enough drama in it that you don‘t need to add more.

Back to the original question:

The "tomgirl" look may be what‘s holding you back from a serious relationship simply because the guys are looking at you as a "buddy" or "ol‘ good time sally".  A lot also depends on the type of guys you‘re around.  My guess is you‘re mostly around a lot of guys that aren‘t seriously looking for anything long-term, relationship-wise OR job-wise.

At your age guys that are in the business of wanting to seriously settle down have most typically settled into a career and are focused on getting ahead.  They don‘t have a job anymore, they want or have a career, and want to build a life for themselves.  You might try and soften your look as well as expand your horizons.  Guys that are career oriented are attracted to women that are career oriented.

At least that‘s been my experience.

Chelsea:

What‘s clear to me is you‘re in love with the idea of being in love.  You finally extracted yourself out of one bad relationship only to enter another which had NUMEROUS red flags waving (long distance, sinister ex, jail time, etc.).

How about this time you concentrate your efforts on learning how to be happy alone.  It‘s really not all that bad.  Concentrate on your career, doing the things you want to do, not having to answer to anyone about anything.  Once you‘re happy with the single life and realize you don‘t NEED someone in your life to be happy, then and only then are you completely in charge of deciding if someone will truly ADD to that life rather than detract from it.

Things normally slow down a bit in the romance department once a child comes into the picture...but it sounds like yours is the extreme case.

First things first.  BOTH of you have to agree this is a problem, and agree it‘s a problem you want to fix in order to move forward.

I would concentrate my efforts at this point on just laying out your perceptions of what‘s going on to her and ask if she doesn‘t see there‘s a problem here...and if so, what you both are willing to do to clear this up.

This isn‘t a time for annoyment or anger, it a time for two people to act like rational adults who have a child and want to do a serious evaluation of where things stand.  That is the best thing you can get out of going to a therapist...is moderation of the discussion.  But you can‘t get anything out of going to a therapist until BOTH of you agree it‘s a problem and a problem you want to fix.

Hint:  Talk to her about how these things make you FEEL, not the incidents themselves.  That makes it less about pointing fingers and laying blame and more about caring how the situation is affecting each other.

I don‘t put a whole lot of faith into counseling unless both people going to the counseling are going there because they‘re both motivated to solve a problem.

I‘ve went to counseling with my ex-wife but it was clear she didn‘t want to solve the problems, she just wanted the counselor to validate her feelings for wanting to get a divorce.  Waste of time and money.

After the divorce, in one of the terms of the child support agreement, she demanded we go to counseling, so I agreed to it based on my lawyer‘s recommendation.  Nothing specific, just go to five counseling sessions.  Again, it was clear all she wanted from the counselor was to air her grievences with me and get validation for her feelings.  That was actually kind of funny, because the first thing the counselor asked us both was "why are you here?"  She gave him a long list of things she wanted to talk about.  He asked me and I told him the truth.  "I‘m here because I had to agree to this in order to get her to start paying child support."  Boy, did THAT piss her off.  Of course the counselor told us there wasn‘t much hope of accomplishing anything there and he was right.

TOTALLY agree with Missy here.

Do you somehow think marriage will make this situation BETTER??!!!

Some people are just compulsive when it comes to lying.  Sometimes it has nothing to do with trying to hide anything.  I don‘t know all the psychological reasons behind it, but dishonesty in a marriage is the writ of death.

You‘re an adult now so here‘s how an adult handles this.  Tell him that you can‘t even BEGIN to consider marriage until you feel you can trust him.  If he feels the need to lie, then he needs to understand that will destroy your trust and any chance you guys have of being together.  If he really wants to be with you and marry you then you have to let him know that‘s a line that you will hold firm on.  The best way to win back your trust, over time, is to be honest and not lie....it‘s simple.

Anything is possible.  Is it probable?  I doubt it.  People don‘t tend to change things in their lives unless something significant causes them to really look hard at themselves and find some motivation to do it.  If this has been a behavior he‘s had for a long time, it takes more than just a promise and hope for it to change.  It takes an understanding on his part of why he‘s compelled to do it.  If he can‘t verbalize to you WHY he feels he needs to lie, then he doesn‘t understand enough about the behavior to be able to change it.

As far as your kids, I would think that‘s not really something that can go unnoticed.  And why should it?  How often/soon do you end up talking about your kids with co-workers or anyone else.  That‘s how often/soon you should talk about them with anyone.  If talking about your kids drives someone away...well...it‘s not like that‘s something that‘s going to change in your life, huh?

As far as your background with men, that‘s a little more personal.  I think once you get to know someone you naturally start to talk about things like that after a while.  Just go with the flow of the conversation.

Sometimes it‘s useful, amidst all the turmoil, to view something that puts things into perspective.  What‘s REALLY important.

http://www.wmsa.net/Veterans%20Affairs/BestCommercial.asf

11 at night, doorbell is ringing fast (like someone‘s jabbing it), doorknob is turning and someone‘s testing the door.  Hubby‘s asleep and she‘s by herself.  I don‘t think she overreacted at all.  She prepared herself, shouted out to the person that she was armed, and the incident ended with the guy leaving.

Given the situation she acted in a perfectly rational and well-prepared manner.  I commend her for being smart and prepared.

That‘s what I try to impress on people that want to own guns.  KNOW THE LAW!!!  It varies from state to state and some states are REALLY screwed up!!

Personally, that‘s why I like living in Florida...the Gunshine state!!!

Ever thought about getting OC (pepper) spray?  It‘s bad news to have to be close enough to an attacker to use a knife.

Just a thought....

Went to bed at 8:45.  Slept until my son called to come pick him up from work at 1:15.  Went back to sleep at 2.

Hey!!!!  Waitaminit!!!  That‘s the same thing I do EVERY Saturday night!!!

sheesh......

Actually, if you read the thread further (her later responses) you‘ll find out she knew the laws quite well.  She lives in Florida and was aware that all that would be required to justify shooting would be if the guy came through the door, whether he had a weapon or not.

Clearly she was trained well.  The fact that she got excited is normal.  In spite of all the training the military goes through and the police go through, when it really comes down to a real life and death situation you can‘t help but get excited..it‘s called adrenaline.  And that‘s exactly why they train so hard so that in moments of crisis they fall back on their training..and that‘s exactly what she did.

Why does everyone blame the mistress?  Well, in this situation there‘s PLENTY of blame to go around.  It‘s not just the mistress, or the errant husband, or the rejected ex.  It‘s a situation caused by people acting selfishly and without honor.

Compare the situation you are in to the situation that would exist if you had insisted that things be settled between the guy and his wife before anything progressed between you two.  Admittedly, there would be hard feelings, but there would be no betrayal.  In that case the ex would have no reason to blame you.  You did the right thing.  People have every right to seek their happiness, but that never justifies deceipt.

I‘ve experienced the other situation.  My ex wanted to pursue a relationship with someone else, but instead of deceiving me, we dealt with it and ended up getting a divorce.  Naturally I had hard feelings against this guy, as well as against my ex, but I can‘t say I was deceived in any way.  Naturally, the kids suffer...and that‘s unfortunate.  How much more would they suffer if Mom and Dad continue in a relationship that has no meaning?

If you‘re upset because the ex blames you, well, that‘s because you deserve it.  You didn‘t exactly act in an honorable fashion, huh?

Of course, it could have gone worse...something like this:

From the last line of the post (directed to the original poster who is the mistress).

If you‘re upset because the ex blames you, well, that‘s because you deserve it.  You didn‘t exactly act in an honorable fashion, huh?

I really beg to differ with you here.  You‘ve mentioned a couple of times that he‘s a good father.  He may be a CARING father, and he may be a FUN father...he‘s not a GOOD father.

A GOOD father leads by example.  He teaches his kids about things like honor, integrity, self-control, discipline, living by a strong set of values that guides your choices, and respect for yourself and other people.  He teaches these things primarily by living them.  I speak with some authority here...I happen to have a GOOD father and I thank God every day for that.

The fact is, he‘s a weakling..and unless he learns how to be strong he will teach his children to be weak.  He‘s not a man to be respected by either his children or any REAL man with a sense of integrity and honor.  Face the facts, you chose to be with a weak-willed and selfish individual that can‘t see any larger purpose or meaning in life other than to do what pleases him.   But then again, your choices don‘t suggest you deserve any better.  He may want the best for his kids, but he‘s not prepared to deliver it by living it.

Don‘t insult those fathers that DO try to live that way by comparing him to them!!!

WOW...I think it‘s safe to say your hubby isn‘t the brightest bulb in the box.

I don‘t think you‘re being oversensitive at all, but I do think your hubby might need to engage his brain before saying ignorant things.

Quite frankly, I expect there‘s a LOT more holding him back from being with girls "like that" than just his self-esteem.  You might want to point out that there‘s a pretty high likelihood that if one of those girls saw him on the street, they‘d pretty much ignore him.  Certainly if he opened his mouth and said the kind of things he‘s been saying to you they wouldn‘t exactly consider him to be the "man of their dreams" either.

I don‘t say there‘s anything wrong with you (and him) trying to be the best you can be, for yourself as well as for him.  But at the same time I think he needs to deflate his ego a bit and check in with reality.

You might want to point out that there‘s a HIGH LIKELIHOOD that it would be a LOT easier for YOU to get one of those porn studs than it would be for him to get one of those porn women...given the opportunity.

Well..you‘re right about one thing...you need to calm down and think rationally.

Personally, I think you need to lay out all these incidents to you hubby and ask him, if the situation were reversed what would HE be thinking?  You‘re not out of your mind.  You‘ve come across things that are making you suspicious...and the one way to curb those suspicions is to be open and honest and let you "see" nothing is going on.

If he doesn‘t want to have you being suspicious then it‘s not hard to sit down with you and go over his phone bill.  If there‘s nothing to hide then why not?  If the jewelry was returned then what‘s the problem with showing you the credit?  Certainly those little acts are LESS of a problem than living in a situation where he feels like he‘s being "spied on."

Bottom line.  Don‘t go crazy here.  Life isn‘t over even if it DOES turn out to be true.  What‘s the worst that could happen?  He goes his way, you go yours.  Big deal...you learned something and will probably end up with someone better...his loss.

IF you are on a cable modem, and depending on the rate you get for cable modem service, you can save a certain amount per month with Vonage.  Not a GREAT amount because you have to factor in the cost of your cable service, but it could drop you down $50-$75 a month below what you currently pay for your phone.

The biggest downsides to look for is that all of the phones in your house have to be connected to their router.  If you lose power, you lose phone service.  Depending on your area of the country you may or may not be able to keep your same number.  Also, some areas of the country require dialing the full 10 or 11 digit phone numbers even for local calls.

The other thing to remember is that your voice service is sharing bandwidth with your cable internet service.  Some users have reported scratchy and broken up voice service when they‘re downloading large files from the internet.

I don‘t use it, but that‘s what I‘ve found out from my research.

You need to be careful here on SEVERAL fronts.

Not knowing the demeanor of either of you I agree the best thing to do is for both of you to stay away from each other until the court date if possible.  However, that being said, you could find yourself in quite a mess here if the court finds that you have been denying him visitation.  It‘s all well and good that you feel you should hold off visitation until you work out a schedule, however, that‘s not solely your call.  If he agrees, that‘s fine, but he doesn‘t have to agree.  You DO, on the other hand, have to display to the court your willingness to let him have ample time and opportunity for visitation with his child.  It really doesn‘t matter if YOU think you have or not.  The court will base that decision on your actions.

The cops aren‘t worthless.  They have to be fair and impartial to both sides based on the evidence at hand.  You wouldn‘t want them to take your baby away from you just because he told them he believes, based on what you said during the argument, that you might harm the baby, or hide the baby, to get back at him, right?

If you are concerned about your safety, take precautions.  If you think there is a REAL reason to be concerned for your baby‘s safety, and can back that up with clear evidence of a THREAT (not a perception of a threat), then take action there as well.  However, you BOTH participated in an argument here.  You BOTH said things you probably shouldn‘t have.  Don‘t make this worse by getting your child caught in the middle of it unless you truly have clear and convincing evidence (not subjective feelings) that you fear for the baby‘s well-being.

No court in the land will find his saying that he‘ll "fight you for custody" as a threat against the baby.  He has every bit as much right to seek custody as you do.  That‘s the law.

Thanks lady.

Nothing more than good ol‘ southern values.  Maybe you have to be raised south of the Mason-Dixon line to get it??!!

LMM:

Sorry to take up bandwidth on the message board for this but apparently there are also some ODBC problems with your messaging feature so this is the only way I can contact you.

There appears to be more than one problem with the site.  Along with the current one that doesn‘t allow replies (which appears to be a scripting error), there are also some intermittent timeout problems coming from either the ODBC driver or the IP connection to the database (SQL Server I‘m assuming).
I retired from Microsoft several years ago and was integrally involved in the development and commercial deployment of IIS and VBScripting.  Feel free to have your technicians contact me if you‘d like and I can give them more feedback on the problems I‘ve seen.

Okay....guy‘s viewpoint...

I personally dropped out of the whole "jeg" discussion when it became obvious she wasn‘t in here to learn anything.  In fact, I think her whole reason for coming in here in the first place was to cause disruption...and unfortunately she succeeded.

My first impression when she posed was to respond with a one word answer:

TROLL

I gave her (or who knows, maybe it‘s a HIM playing games here) a chance, but now I‘m back to my one word response.

TROLL

So that does it for me on the whole Jag issue...let‘s move on.

Boy!!!  That‘s my question exactly!!!

If there is one thing that totally mystifies me in some people‘s behavior (men AND women) it‘s that.  Dont‘ get me wrong.  I‘ve made bad choices as well...I just don‘t repeat them.

It‘s not like his behaviors weren‘t apparent in the first place.  That‘s what caused the initial breakup.  I‘m not saying people can‘t change, but when they do it‘s readily apparent.  It‘s not just words, it‘s typically combined with a completely different set of behaviors and interests.  Even at that, I‘m not sure I could really trust they completely CHANGED.

I can‘t remember one single instance I‘ve EVER come across where someone broke up, went back together and it worked.  So why is that hope so prevelant when all logic dictates otherwise??

I guess I write it of to some people allow their hearts to rule their minds.

I can‘t say I‘ve been subjected to any gay slurs, but then I‘m pretty sure they all know if they did that I‘d probably hit them with my purse!!!

On the other hand, I know exactly how you feel.  After breaking up with my ex-wife even though I really didn‘t have any desire to get back into another relationship, I did.  Not because I really wanted one, but more because I felt that‘s what I SHOULD do.

I even started down that same road after this last breakup by signing up with online dating services.  After meeting a few people I really did some soul searching and came up with the conclusion that I personally don‘t see any benefit at all in having a relationship in my life right now.  It detracts more than it adds.

I‘ve got a full life.  I have things I enjoy doing and, for the most part, they‘re just as enjoyable if not MORE enjoyable doing them either by myself or just with friends.  I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, and I don‘t have to answer to anyone.  Try mentioning THAT to some of your MARRIED friends!!  And you know what the BEST part is?  My place has NO foofie, girlie stuff in it!!!  Motorcycles, trucks and tools in the garage.  Mini-fridge, TV mounted on wall, bar and card table in the dining area.  Kitchen...who the hell cares.  Living room:  Home theater setup...you gotta love that!!

All of those things would change if I were to get involved with someone because then I‘d have to factor their needs/wants into my life.  It‘s not that I‘m bitter about relationships...I‘m ambivilent.  Or maybe to put it in business terms:  there‘s a negative cost/benefit analysis.

You‘re in a little different set of circumstances than me, though, in that you‘ve never been married.  I wouldn‘t let the age thing bother me however.  At your point in life, if all is going normally, you probably have settled into a career and have built a few things for yourself.  There‘s more than enough decent women out there that have been doing the same thing.  You got plenty of time.  Take the time and figure out how you want this next relationship to be different...both from how you will approach it as well as the type of person you‘d want to be with.  Believe me when I tell you, you want someone DIFFERENT than your ex.  You want to grow...not stagnate.

Say that again?  I didn‘t catch it the first time....

I don‘t know....sounds a little "girlie" for my tastes.

How about adding in some REALLY BIG explosions, and maybe a couple of good car chases?

Oh, and don‘t forget...mindless, brain-eating zombies is always good for getting a male audience!!!

Sheesh...good thing you weren‘t born a guy!!

Welcome to OUR WORLD!!

missydelite wrote:

omg i love it

yeah....yeah...funny and all but...

What the HELL happened with the invasion??  Were there some really big explosions?  C‘mon finish the story!!!!

I guess my initial response to this is, what exactly do you "love" about this guy?  Clearly, it‘s not his morals or character.  Apparently it‘s not his consideration for you and the place you take in his life.  So, what is it?

Are you somehow convinced this is the BEST the world has to offer you in terms of a boyfriend/mate?

I think the question of staying/leaving depends a lot on the circumstances of his cheating.  People make mistakes...sometimes very bad mistakes.  The question is, what do they DO about those mistakes.  Do they learn from them and try to do better or not.

In my opinion the critical issue here is, how did his affair end?  Did he end it, or was it ended by some other circumstance?  How did you find out?  In the best case scenario he realized what he was doing was wrong and put an end to the situation.  Even though he was wrong, he at least values his relationship with you and his family enough to realize his mistake and try to correct it.  That‘s the best indication of whether or not there‘s hope.

Virgin?  What‘s that?

Just kidding.  Actually I commend you and your parents for instilling in you the patience and discipline to wait.  You‘re right in thinking, however, that the premium placed on virginity is not that high anymore among the general population.  There are places where it‘s more valued, however, such as in church groups and some support groups (that have both male and female members).

I think the battle you will most likely face at your age is that a lot of guys don‘t want the "honor" of taking your virginity as that carries with it, in their minds, an obligation and a relationship with you that they might not be ready for.  I doubt your virginity will be an issue if you find the right kind of guy that wants an ongoing relationship with you anyway.

That‘s one of those questions that has a litany of answers, so take your pick of one or more of the following:

It‘s easy..just pay and get laid.
More discreet...easier to keep secret
No emotional attachment...just sex
Fulfill a sexual fantasy that thier SO won‘t do for them
Wants to be with a "trashy" woman
Likes the excitement of getting away with something

There‘s probably more, but feel free to add to the list.

Sorry...I don‘t buy that bit of marketing fluff at all.

I was a member of eHarmony for six months.  There was not a SINGLE DAY that went by that they didn‘t send me at least 3 or 4 new matches.  I find it very hard to believe that the "love of my life" is so prevelant.

Bottom line, I didn‘t find anyone there I was even remotely interested in....imagine that.

- The main diet of the liberal is Tofu and granola.  This makes them puny and easy to throw.

- Liberals will try to entice you with their twisted logic.  Counter with a simple bitch-slap.

- Hanging a picture of Ronald Reagan over you door will typically be enough to keep them from entering.

- Liberals are against nuclear but have yet to suggest a soy-based substitute that can obliterate cities.

- If you see a fuel-efficient car it‘s probably being driven by a liberal.  Feel free to run them off the road with your SUV.

- Liberals are constantly inflaming the culture war.  They seem to forget which side has all the guns.

- Liberals are always whining about tolerance, but when you punch them for that they tend to get moody.

This is one of those few subjects that really tears at me.  One can only hope that in time your ex will grow up a bit and see what he‘s missing with his boys before it‘s too late.

My ex-g/f ‘s daughter was in the same boat, her father never called or wanted to see her even on birthdays or Christmas.  When her mom and I first were going out (she was 13 at the time), she really did miss her dad and would do almost anything to get to spend time with him.  About the time she got to be 15 or so, she really turned hateful towards him.  I know in her heart of hearts she still desperately wanted a relationship with him, but she had just been hurt for too long.  Even though my ex-g/f and I don‘t talk, I still keep up some relationship with her daughter who is 18 now.  I know she knows I cares about her, but even at this age she would love nothing more than for her father to be a part of her life in some small way.

The bottom line here is, I don‘t think anyone will ever take his place in your boy‘s hearts.  Even if a great guy comes along that loves them, they will always want their Dad.  I hope to God he realizes this someday and maybe even finds out that the best job in the world is being a Dad.

I‘m going to give you a little bit different perspective on this.  Personally, I commend this guy for not mis-representing things.  Good lord, you‘ve only been seeing him for a YEAR.  Unfortunately our society has gotten to the point that if someone isn‘t saying "I Love You" and ready to move in together within a year something‘s wrong with the situation.  That‘s total nonsense.

The fact that he wants to hold off from going any further right now means that he takes those kind of commitments seriously.  And he‘s right, those commitments ARE serious...whether it‘s moving in together or marriage.  If you want, I‘m sure you could find someone else that within just a few months will tell you he loves you, wants to marry you, and wants to move in together.  But then again, THAT guy would probably do that with WHOEVER he happens to date.

Give him some time and let him move at his pace.  The fact he‘s in his 30‘s (and I assume never married) means he understands it may be time to consider settling down, but at least he‘s taking it seriously.  If after a few more months you don‘t see anything moving forward then talk with him about how he perceives the relationship and what he sees as the future between you two.

In the meantime, you‘re only 23.  Concentrate your efforts on your career rather than on marriage.  Careers can last you a lifetime whereas marriages sometimes don‘t.  You have plenty of time before you need to be married.

I don‘t want too get to explicit here, but for me, it deals with 200 yards of Saran Wrap, a gallon of Wesson oil, and a stuffed Owl.

Why do you WANT him to talk to you?  The fact is he made whatever choices he wants to make and he‘s allowed to do that, the same as you are.  In your opinion his actions were disreputable choices, so why on EARTH would you want to continue ANY kind of conversation or relationship with him or his family?  It‘s time to move on.  Now the question is, will you make good choices or not?

You are not in charge of how other people act in this world....you ARE, however, in charge of how YOU act.  Time to put things into perspective.  You were dumped...but you were dumped by a LOSER.  Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Allowing your emotions (whether it‘s anger or lust) to get the better of you and doing something stupid puts you in the same category as this guy.  Hopefully these feelings of anger and resentment and the thoughts of doing something bad to him are just thoughts, and you know better than to act on them.  God help you if you do act on them...you have a VERY tough road ahead of you filled with courts, jail, probation, and very likely expensive civil judgements that will destroy your credit and limit your job choices.

The fact that he hasn‘t acted in a civil manner (although he hasn‘t broken any laws) doesn‘t give you license to do the same.  Why not concentrate instead on being the better person..put it behind you and move on with your life.  Remember, the quality of the person is not measured by how they act when things are going well, but rather how they act in times of adversity.

Your girls deserve for you to demonstrate to them how a strong woman deals with adversity and doesn‘t allow someone to consistently take advantage of her.  That‘s what you need to teach them.

It‘s clear this guy is a fraud.  He has been a fraud since day one.  The actions you take now will be the model your girls follow because you are the pattern for them as young women.  Demonstrate some strength, no matter how hard it might be, so that one day when they are confronted with a bad situation they will remember how strong Mom was and try to do the same.

If they love their Daddy and their Daddy loves them, that will never change, whether you are together or not.  If you decide to break it off, they may not understand initially, but there will come a day when they WILL understand, and respect you for your decision.

Here‘s some possible answers for you:

1.  When a break up happens, why would a person not surrender anothers items.

If there‘s no animosity between you two then it‘s just laziness.  The fact you felt compelled to get his stuff out doesn‘t mean he has the same motivation.  Call him, set a date for picking up your stuff, arrange for a police officer to accompany you if you feel it‘s necessary.  If he won‘t return your calls for setting a date tell him that if you don‘t hear from him by a certain date you will seek a judgement to get your stuff returned.

As far as the rest of the items I‘ll take a guess, and I suspect it is a pretty good guess too..because I‘ve been there.  I think he has had some serious doubts about the relationship for some time.  It‘s not that he intentionally wants to hurt you and that‘s why he‘s been beating around the bush and being inconsistent in his actions.  He‘s conflicted between knowing he needs to end this relationship and not wanting to hurt you.  Unfortunately, there‘s no easy way to do that.

I realize it‘s hard not to take it personally, and you may never really know what prompted him to decide you and he weren‘t meant to be together, because (in his mind) if he were honest it would only end up hurting you more.

Accept the fact that the two of you weren‘t meant to be together and get on with your life.  His actions are not a slam against you.  There are LOTS of different types of people in this world and not everyone is meant to be together.

Okay...I‘m ready to ask my stock question.  I‘ve asked it of several people here in the past, so now I‘ll ask it of you.  Are you ready?  Here it comes.....

Do you really think this guy is the BEST the world has to offer you?

If so, I‘d suggest raising your expectations....

(wishing there was a "rolling my eyes" icon)....

Honestly, I‘ve never dated a Mormon before.  But I DID once date two Baptists at the same time.  I think that‘s roughly the equivilent...

I agree...this thread should be fun!!!

Now..does anyone have an extra stuffed owl I could borrow?

That‘s the complicated part of this answer.  I think there are many reasons why a guy, after being caught cheating, might fight to keep the relationship together.

I think for the most part it comes down to comfort.  The fact that he cheated doesn‘t mean he wants to be in a long term relationship with the person he cheated with.  He may be comfortable in his relationship with you and decide he wants to salvage it.  Breaking up causes a disruption in everybody‘s life, because after a period of time your lives get intermingled (along with your possessions, relationships with other family members, etc.)  So it could also just be avoiding the mess that will be caused by the breakup, even though in his heart of hearts he knows it‘s not going to work.

You‘re right in thinking that a rational person would just say, "let‘s call it quits" and move on...but I doubt either person in a situation like you‘re describing is thinking rationally.  They‘re gut-reacting to the moment...not necessarily thinking about the long term.

To me it sounds like this guy has been on the fence with his feelings about you and the relationship for quite some time.  One day he thinks he wants it to work, the next he thinks he wants to get out.  It wouldn‘t surprise me if, after breaking up, he comes to the conclusion that he wants to try again with you.

You‘re best bet in this case is to draw a firm line like you probably should have in the first place.  It‘s over.  Close that part of your life off, stop trying to analyze it, accept it for what it was and move on.  It sounds to me as if this guy is pretty insecure about himself and may eventually not like the idea of being alone.  Your best protection in this case is to concentrate your efforts on enjoying being "single" so your not tempted to try and put something back together that‘s best left alone.  You‘ve been weak in the past, so don‘t turn it into a habit.

I‘m not sure which replies you‘re talking about that leave you so disillusioned, but quite frankly I can‘t say that I really blame you.  Being a guy makes it no different, believe it or not.  The older I get the more I feel like my whole life with women was nothing but compromises made to keep them happy while sacrificing my own...and I can‘t really say they were worth it.

Who knows, maybe we‘re BOTH wrong, but I‘m not going to hold my breath at this point.  I‘ve finally learned I‘m in charge of whether or not I‘m happy, and I‘ve found out I‘m pretty happy without someone in my life.  Freedom to be one‘s self without having to concern yourself about someone else‘s happiness counts for a lot, in my humble opinion.

My new credo:  NO MORE COMPROMISES

If that means I go it alone, well then, so be it.....

Summer:

I‘ll respond with a little story of my own.  Maybe you can draw some conclusions from the parallels to your situation.

Two years ago, my youngest son was in a downward spiral caused by drugs (Xanax), alcohol, and the wrong kind of friends.  During that time he happened to meet a girl and started dating her.  They weren‘t exclusive by any means, but it was clear she liked him but was as confused as you are about his behaviors and what to do.  Eventually his behaviors caught up with him and he ended up in a tremendous amount of trouble with the law.  Basically, his life was in shambles.  At that point they pretty much lost touch with each other.

At that point I stepped in and moved him out of the shit-hole of Tampa to live with me in a an environment more suitable for getting his life together....away from all his old friends and environment.  As he started getting his shit together he again began to see this girl.  Again, there was no major commitment between them for a number of months, but the further he got into his rehab and the more he got his life back together, the more he appreciated the fact that there was someone (other than me) willing to take the chance on him and be there for him through the bad times.

They‘ve now been together exclusively for almost a year, and it seems to be working for both of them.  Hopefully he‘s learned his lesson not only about drugs and alcohol, but also about the value of true friends.  He‘s still in the recovery process, but at least he‘s back in college and doing all the right things, and recognizes the nightmare he caused for himself.

So, what are the lessons you might learn from this?

1.  Your friend may be on the road to recovery, but he is not  likely to be successful without a MAJOR change in his lifestyle.  Once he‘s out of rehab, that‘s when the hard work begins.  If he has access to his old life, he probably won‘t make it.

2. IF, and that‘s a big IF, you decide to continue with him, AND, and that‘s a big AND, he can find a situation that will truly allow him to recover from his addictions, there may be hope that he will appreciate and honor your dedication to him.  But it‘s not going to be easy for either him OR you.

So there you go.  Sorry there‘s no "happily ever after" movie endings...just a lot of dedication and hard work and the hope that the future will be better.  You just have to decide if you‘re up to the challenges.

The fact that he lied to you is not nearly as important as WHY he felt compelled to lie to you.  In this case, in your own words, he didn‘t mess around with someone else.  What he did was go to a bar he knows you don‘t like, and then lied to you.  Now WHY would he do that?  Maybe because he knows you would be upset with him for going to a bar you don‘t like, and then have to deal with you "scolding" him for doing it?

The fact that you don‘t like a bar gives you no right to determine for other people that they shouldn‘t.  He‘s a big boy and has every right to go there if he so chooses.  And then to make matters worse, you invade the privacy of his home to find out the truth and end up "scolding" him anyway.  In this case, the "truth" doesn‘t appear to be that bad...except in your mind.

The very subject line you chose (Can‘t change a party boy?) indicates you somehow think it‘s okay to try and modify someone else‘s behavior to fit your idea of "what‘s right and proper."  Update on life:  YOU DON‘T HAVE THAT RIGHT.

You are in control of your own life, not anyone else‘s.  If you don‘t like being with someone that enjoys going to such places then call it quits and find someone else.  He already has a mom that will "scold" him for doing bad things.

I think it‘s important to try and look at this situation from HIS viewpoint as well.

All of those sexual variations he is interested in are quite personal, not something you typically are prone to mention to someone you are seeing casually.  Then the picture changes.  Both of you start believing you may have a future together, but would it be any less hurtful at that point if he brings this stuff up?  I agree that would be the best timing, but I‘m not sure it would end up with any different results as far as hurt.  He may have felt that if he were to find the right kind of woman he might be able to settle into a more normal pattern of sexual behavior, and found out he was wrong.

This is one of those no win situations for you AND him.  There‘s no reason to feel vindictive...he has his sexual preferences.  He‘s probably not very proud of them, but he‘s an adult and allowed to have them.  His intentions were NOT to hurt you, but to hide a portion of his life that he knew you would not approve of and probably make him feel bad for his preferences.

The fact that he broke up with you and moved on simply means he no longer wanted to continue living that lie and wanted to be true to himself.  To each their own, and you have no right to judge his sexual choices any more than he has a right to question you on yours.  At least he did the noble thing and allowed you to live the way you want to live and pursued his life and sexual fantasies.  Why be mad?  Other than the fact he possibly placed you at risk as far as STD‘s...I‘ll buy that one.

I find it interesting you posted this under the Abuse Help topic.  I‘m assuming that‘s because you see this as emotional abuse?

It may, or may not be, depending on how you‘re approaching these situations with your boyfriend.  Clearly you guys aren‘t living together, so there‘s a limited amount of say you really have over how he choses to live his life.  Even if you were living together, you‘re limited in that you would have CHOSEN to live with someone that obviously has other things going on that he likes to do other than be with you.

In terms of his "turning things around on you" I‘d suggest you look carefully at a model of social interaction called "Transactional Analysis", which may be at the core of what‘s going on here.  It originated in a book titled "I‘m Okay, You‘re Okay" which was published MANY years ago.  There are LOTS of references to it on the web, however, as it‘s a common training technique used in large organizations for getting people to be able to communicate better.

In a nutshell, people tend to interact in one of three levels.  Child mode, Adult mode, and Parent mode.  They are as they are named in that in Child mode one tends to act out, whine, and displace blame much as a child does that gets reprimanded.  Parent mode is the opposite in that they tend to reprimand, make judgements, and try to force corrections.  Adult mode would be similar to two people in a business having a non-threatening interchange about how to approach attacking a business issue...in other words, no emotion, logic and reason.

If I were to guess, I‘d suggest that both of you are battling to be in the Parent mode, which automatically forces the other person to be placed (unwillingly) in the child mode, and they then have a normal reaction of trying to assume the parent mode which then reverses these roles.

From a logical, Adult mode perspective, you two both have different viewpoints obviously about your relationship and how that relationship should be treated.  He clearly has a more casual attitude about it than you do as he‘s assuming he can treat you more or less the same way as he might treat one of his friends.  You see it differently.

In this case, no one is right or wrong as each deserves to have whatever type of relationship they choose to have...you may be wrong for each other however because you see the relationship differently.  You‘ll only know that if, through Adult discussion, you see there is a void that neither of you are willing to concede.

The only way to resolve this, if both of you CHOSE to want to resolve it is to mediate that difference without blame or judgement.  For example, if he wants the freedom to have his own time that doesn‘t involve you, and is willing to concede (logically) that you are more than just a friend and therefore deserve a higher level of regard, then you might be able to find some common ground.  This requires, however, that BOTH of you understand the way you‘re interacting and consciously try to overcome it.  Awareness is half the battle.  It‘s VERY hard for someone to continue to act in the very emotion-driven states of Parent or Child when one of the parties is NOT being driven by emotions and forcing the conversation to be non-emotional, non-judgemental and logical.

Hope that helps..

Damn!!!  That‘s a pretty good list Aqua...

However, have you ever given consideration to a stuffed owl?  Or alternatively, a feathered midget??

I hope you don‘t desert him.  If he‘s going to come out of this he‘ll need someone like you pulling for him.  In spite of all of his troubles I hope you look to see if there‘s a "good heart" beneath it all...I know that‘s what my son‘s girlfriend did.  Drug and alcohol abuse can cause you to ignore the potential of a person, but only you would know that...not anyone here.

Good luck to both you AND him.

Chelsea,

I absolutely agree with everything you said.  I just think it‘s useful to understand that kind of honesty, particularly about something so personal, is not an easy thing to do.  What he did was wrong and hopefully he learned a lesson from it, and will continue from here on to be honest with himself and not involve others.  It takes a certain amount of personal courage to "come out of the closet" about whatever your preferences are if they aren‘t perceived as "normal" by the vast majority.

His actions aren‘t excusable, just understandable.

I used to think the same things about hands, until I started dating a dual amputee.  Boy, I never could get a grip on that relationship!!!!

Yeah..I know...that‘s sick....

PSSST...Summer,

I know what that THING is...but I‘m not telling.  I figure it‘s worth a LOT of money so I‘m gonna list it on E*Bay!!!

How about posting your favorite lyrics?  I have a couple.

Here‘s one to make you laugh:

The Truth About Men Lyrics

Artist: Tracy Byrd

The Truth About Men: Tracy Byrd with Blake Shelton.
Written by Tim Johnson, Rory Lee and Paul Overstreet.
(© Scarlet Moon Music / Warner-Tamerlane Publishing.)
Single release from forthcoming album, © 2003, RCA

We don‘t like to go out shoppin‘,
We don‘t care what‘s on sale.
We just want to sit with a bag full of chips,
Watchin‘ the NFL.
When you come over at half-time,
An‘ say: "Does this dress fit too tight?"
We just look you in the eye with a big fat lie,
An say:"Uh, uh: Looks just right."

Well, that‘s the truth about men.
Yeah, that‘s the truth about us.
We like to hunt and golf on our days off,
Scratch, an‘ spit, an cuss.
It don‘t matter what line we hand you,
When we come draggin‘ in.
We ain‘t wrong; we ain‘t sorry,
An‘ it‘s probably gonna happen again.

We hate watchin‘ "Steel Magnolias".
We like "Rambo" an‘ "Die Hard 4".
Jump up and down like fools when we see the new tools,
At the Home Depot store.
We don‘t really wanna take you to dinner,
At some fancy restaurant.
The only reason we do is ‘cause we know it leads to,
The one thing that we all want.

Well, that‘s the truth about men.
Yeah, that‘s the truth about guys.
We‘d rather play guitars and work on cars,
Than work on the problems in our lives.
An‘ though we might say it to you,
Every now and then,
We ain‘t wrong; we ain‘t sorry,
An‘ it‘s probably gonna happen again.

Well, if you want to know what we‘re all thinkin‘,
It‘s nothing too complex.
It‘s just somethin‘ cold for drinkin‘,
And a whole lot of s-e......

Yes, that‘s the truth about men.
Yeah, that‘s the truth about us.
We like to hunt and golf an‘ drive around, lost,
Scratch, an‘ spit, an‘ a whole lot of other disgustin‘ stuff.
It don‘t matter what line we hand you,
When we come a-crawlin‘ in.
We ain‘t wrong; we ain‘t sorry,
An‘ it‘s probably gonna happen again.

We ain‘t wrong; we ain‘t sorry,
An‘ it‘s probably gonna happen;
Sure, it‘s gonna happen;
You know it‘s gonna happen again.
An‘ that‘s the truth about men.

and here‘s one to make you tear up....

Artist : Gary Allan
Song : Tough Little Boys

I never once, backed down from a punch.
I‘d take it square on the chin.
Well I found out fast a bullys just that and you got to stand up to him.
So I didn‘t cry when I got a black eye as bad as it hurt I just grinned.
But when tough little boys grow up to be Dads
They turn into big babies again.

Scared me to death when took your first steps,
Well I‘d fall everytime you fell down.
Your first day of school,
I cried like a fool, I followed your school bus to town.

Well I didn‘t cry when ol Yeller died
at least not in front of my friends.
But when tough little boys grow up to be
Dads they turn into big babies again.

Well I‘m a grown man and as strong as I am.
Well sometimes it‘s hard to believe,
One little girl with little blonde curls can totally terrify me.
If you were to ask my wife would just laugh ,
she‘d say I know all about men,
how tough little boys grow up to be Dads
they turn into big babies again.

Well I know one day I‘ll give you away
and I‘m goin to stand there and smile.
When I get home and I‘m all alone,
I‘ll sit in your room for awhile.

Well I didn‘t cry when ol Yeller died
at least not in front of my friends.
Cause when tough little boys grow up to be
Dads they turn into big babies again

I guess I just don‘t get it....but let me recap for a moment and see if I got it right.

You‘ve been seeing this guy for 3 months.  You open the subject of commitment.  He tells you his honest feelings about how he feels about a "committed relationship" at this point, and because his timetable for commitment doesn‘t match yours, he‘s suddenly a "fucker"?

Three months?  Good lord...I‘ve taken longer than that to even begin to refer to someone as my "girlfriend."  The truth is, there have been times in my life where I took longer than that to pay my utility bill.  However, I‘m sure there are plenty of guys out there that would want to be in a committed relationship within three months.  Heck, they‘d probably even be willing to move in together in three months.  But then again...they‘d be willing to do both of those with WHOEVER they happened to be seeing.

Would you be happier if he at least lied to you and told you he was ready to be in a committed relationship, even though he wasn‘t?

Has it occurred to you that maybe he just takes the idea of a commitment a little more seriously than a lot of guys?

here ya go CB.....get some more tissues out...

The Keeper Of The Stars Lyrics

Artist: Tracy Byrd
Album: Keepers

It was no accident me finding you
Someone had a hand in it
Long before we ever knew
Now I just can‘t believe you‘re in my life
Heaven‘s smilin‘ down on me
As I look at you tonight

I tip my hat to the keeper of the stars
He sure knew what he was doin‘
When he joined these two hearts
I hold everything
When I hold you in my arms
I‘ve got all I‘ll ever need
Thanks to the keeper of the stars

Soft moonlight on your face oh how you shine
It takes my breath away
Just to look into your eyes
I know I don‘t deserve a treasure like you
There really are no words
To show my gratitude

So I tip my hat to the keeper of the stars
He sure knew what he was doin‘
When he joined these two hearts
I hold everything
When I hold you in my arms
I‘ve got all I‘ll ever need
Thanks to the keeper of the stars

It was no accident me finding you
Someone had a hand in it
Long before we ever knew

I always favor the "leave it alone and move on" approach.  There may be exceptions, but I think in most cases if one is truly honest with one‘s self, the reason you are being driven to expose someone is due, at least in some part, to vindictiveness...even though you try to rationalize it as trying to "protect and warn the other woman"....and vindictiveness is not much of a trait to be proud of.

You are not in charge of anyone‘s life but your own.  There‘s more than enough drama and disruption caused when breaking up a relationship, and there‘s certainly more important things to concern one‘s self with than taking an action that will undoubtedly add to the drama and confusion.  I say take the high road, be the better person, and let sleeping dog‘s lie.  Concern yourself with your affairs, cut all ties with the past and move on.  To me it‘s simple math, you will heal faster, get your life together faster, and be happier sooner if you focus on only the important things in this situation which is YOU....nobody else.

As far as the difference between posting a person in the database here and telling the other woman, there‘s a BIG difference.  One action is passive and one is agressive....easy to tell the difference.

One other note...being a born and bred Texan myself, I‘m truly disappointed in this guy‘s actions.  Are you sure he wasn‘t born in Oklahoma and just likes to CLAIM being a Texan for the added prestige????

Personally, I think Brad should dump both of them and get married to Tom Cruise....then he would be Brad Pitt-Cruise and could go to work for NASCAR!!!!!!!

Ahhhh...probably just a first generation Texan...hardly counts.  Within any luck he won‘t produce offspring so there won‘t be much to worry about...

Obviously the BATF was a little TOO restricted in whose houses they burned down in Waco, huh?

ZM:

As I told you the other night in chat, you need to FOCUS if you want to come out of this in better shape than what you are.  All of this asking "why" and "wishing you‘d never met him" stuff is doing NOTHING at this point but adding needless worry and drama to the situation and is not resolving any of the real-world problems you need to get solved.

You have a son, college, and a divorce to work through.  That‘s more than a full plate.  Instead of spending your time mulling over this stuff you need to start doing some research and planning on how YOU and YOUR son are going to move forward and make a life.  You need a plan and you need to be taking steps toward that plan now.

You know what you need to do, now focus and do it and stop agonizing over things that cannot be changed.  Life is what it is..so move on.  The past is over...history has been written...nothing more can be done about anything but the future.

Sorry if that sounds abrupt, but it‘s time to take over the reigns and take charge for your sake and for your son‘s sake.  Otherwise things WILL NOT GET BETTER.

Those are fine characteristics if given to an appropriate person that appreciates them.  Clearly, he doesn‘t...and his actions do nothing but cause you pain.

Everone is different.  That‘s just how he is.  So what?  Who cares?  It‘s not like you‘ve built a life around this guy, or that he‘s the PERFECT MATCH for you designed by heaven.  Clearly he‘s not.  What do you expect, for him to magically change?

Time cut the ties and move on.  No need to quarrel or fight over it.  You guys are different types of people and that‘s NOT likely to change, so it‘s in HIS and YOUR best interests to move on so you can find someone more like yourself, and he can do the same.

What are you waiting for?

I thought it was an exceptional movie, and so did my son (who‘s 20).  I like the fact that Peter Jackson took the time to develop the story and the characters well enough so that there were reasons for Kong‘s behavior toward the heroine, and helped explained her human actions toward him.  That made all the difference in the world from previous incarnations of this movie.

But they had plenty of good actions scenes too...so it was all worth it.

I‘m constantly amazed when I see things like this in that things have obviously degenerated to a point that‘s unhealthy, and yet people still don‘t just call it quits, cut the ties, move on, and find a healthier relationship.

It sure seems to me that would be healthier, not to mention less expensive, than enduring the alternative.

uhhh....sorry to disappoint you...that‘s not Karma.

Karma is about acting in an honorable, tolerant and value driven fashion and letting the natural forces of the universe control things.  What you‘re suggesting is trying to MANIPULATE Karma so that he gets what he deserves.  If you TRULY believe in Karma, live your life appropriately and honorably and let the forces of nature even things out.

Karma, as well as spirituality, is a PASSIVE process, not an ACTIVE one.

There aren‘t any "laws" governing this type of thing, but I do think the way laws work give us a good indication of what society thinks is "proper" ethical conduct.  So let‘s look at it this way:

If a rapist were to attack you and you defended yourself with a gun and killed him, that would be okay by society‘s standards because you were protecting yourself.  If, on the other hand, AFTER he attacked you and was running away and you shot and killed him, you would probably spend the rest of your life in prison.  You could argue that what you did was an "unselfish act" based on the idea that by killing him you have "protected" some other woman from being raped, but you‘d be out of gas...that‘s not even an acceptable defense, because you only have an indication of what the rapist MIGHT do, and society says you can‘t act on that.  By society‘s standards you can act to protect yourself, but not  someone else from a future act, no matter how probable it might be.  This is a fundamental principle in most classes on ethics...and I have to say, typically one of the most hotly debated.

In the case of shooting the fleeing rapist or telling the other woman, one of the motivations for that action is clearly anger and revenge.  Can you honestly say in this case that you wouldn‘t derive at least SOME satisfaction in this case from exposing the guy?  I would argue that satisfaction comes from striking back...and that is the MOST selfish thing you can do.  Hurt someone else just so YOU feel better.

More importantly, let‘s be realistic about it, do you really think, given this person‘s character, that he will sit still and allow you to have the "last word", or will this ultimately lead to yet more striking back at you in one way or another.  It‘s a losing game that just escalates and the only way to end it is for one party to be the adult and let it alone.

Sorry for the long dissertation, but my son just enrolled in an Ethics class this semester and it brought back a lot of memories for me about when I went through it as I was reading through his textbook....;)

Also, just to add, I would be suspicious of the motives of any ex that told me such a thing.  If she‘s a cheater, I‘ll eventually find out and I would blame no one but myself for not being more careful about my choices.

I totally agree with what everyone here is telling you.  Don‘t go out with the intention of dating...go out with the intention of having some fun and making new friends.

When I got divorced I waited for almost a year before getting involved with someone.  Even then it was a HUGE mistake.  I finally figured out I was dating and getting into relationships not because I really WANTED to be in one, but more because I thought I SHOULD be in one, or I was afraid of being alone.

I think the bottom line is to work on being happy by yourself first.  If you don‘t feel the NEED to be in a relationship you‘re much more likely to find one that works if it comes along.  If it doesn‘t come along, it doesn‘t matter because you‘re happy with your life anyway.

Is it possible for guys to have "friends" that are women?  Sure?  Is that what is happening here?  I doubt it.  Whenever I had lady "friends" and I was in a relationship, my SO was just as close to my "friend" as I was.  They would talk on the phone as much, if not more than I would.

If she truly just wants to be friends with him then he shouldn‘t have any problem with all three of you just hanging out together.  I doubt he‘d like that.  I doubt he (or she for that matter) would be too supportive of you jumping into the middle of their friendship...and that‘s the litmus test of "friend" over "love interest".

There are forgivable cheaters and unforgivable cheaters.  The difference is conscience.

Had your husband, of his own volition, and without your knowledge of the affair, acted out of conscience and ended the relationship, I would say that‘s forgivable.  That‘s not what happened here.

I think what‘s hurting you is the feeling that your husband valued the affair more than he valued you and his family, and you have every right to feel that way because that‘s exactly what happened.  He put all of that on the line in order to have the affair, so why SHOULDN‘T he expect to lose it?  He was willing to gamble it.

I think that‘s where you need to start the discussion with your husband.  Let him be the one to tell you why he shouldn‘t lose what he was willing to risk in order to have the affair.  What actions did he take during the affair that would indicate, in any way, that he valued his family more than he valued his fun times?

You need to put him on the spot and ask him the hard questions.  He‘s got some ‘splainin‘ to do....

Don‘t ask me...it‘s been so long since I was on a "date" I‘ve forgotten how...

I think there‘s a better rule to live by than that:

"If you met them through an online dating service you‘re asking for trouble."

It has served me well......

On the other hand, if you want a REAL date movie why not wait for "Underworld - The Evolution."  I mean...c‘mon, vampires, werewolves, hot girls in tight leather shooting guns....MAN!!!  NOW THAT‘S A DATE MOVIE!!!

The rape scenario was just being used to make a point Alex, about where you‘re rights end and how far one should go in involving themselves in the affairs of others.

I couldn‘t agree with you more that, next to murder, rape is clearly the most abominable crime.  And it‘s fine to be passionate about it.  But you and I are both gun owners, and that raises our level of responsibility well beyond that of a normal non-armed civilian...to the point we can no longer allow our feelings to rule our minds in a situation like I described.  Shooting someone who is FLEEING (no additional circumstances) from a crime, no matter the crime, is NOT an acceptable option, and would DEFINATELY land you in jail..probably for the rest of your life.  Worse yet, it gives ammunition to the gun grabbers who can make the case that normal, everyday citizens should NOT have the right to protect themselves, and opens the door to laws like those recently passed in San Francisco which forces all gun owners to give up their guns.

Now, think about the consequences of THOSE actions.  In trying to stop one rapist from raping other women, you‘ve opened the door that makes EVERY woman defenseless against EVERY rapist because they‘re no longer allowed to own a weapon to defend themselves.

The formula is simple...you shoot out of fear...you never shoot out of anger.

I don‘t want to hijack this thread, so I‘ll leave it at that.  But as a fellow responsible gun owner I would hope you give that a LOT of consideration.

I guess I‘ll have to pass on voting on this one since I don‘t really know the issues here...other than witnessing the animosity between S/HWCNBN and some of the other members, as well as some of the antagonistic posts of S/HWCNBN.

I do, however, have a question.  I completely understand the whole "men are from mars, women are from venus" thing, but then what planet would S/HWCNBN come from?

oh...waitaminit...I know....it must be URANUS!!

sorry....couldn‘t resist that one...shame on me!!!

Believe me....I‘ve tried to piss the women off here with my postings....it just doesn‘t work...they‘re all way too reasonable!!!

At any rate....another guy‘s opinion on all this.

The same rules apply to you as they would any woman that had been cheated on.  You are NOT to blame no matter WHAT you did in the relationship.

A reasonable, civil, and decent person works on the problems in the relationship until it‘s clearly obvious to both parties that it‘s not going to work.  After that, they separate and are free to see others.  That‘s how it works in a monogomous, committed relationship.  Anything less than that and you can rest assured you are NOT dealing with an individual who is honorable and worth having in your life....PERIOD.

The fact that she WANTS to be back with you has nothing to do with whether she DESERVES to be back with you.  If you have kids, the question you have to ask is whether you want to kids to be exposed and model their lives after a person of questionable character.

In my opinion, she DESERVES to come back when she takes full responsibility for her actions and doesn‘t try, in any way, to dismiss them or excuse them.  If a person can‘t do that, they can‘t possible accept their rightful portion of the blame.  And without admitting their weaknesses and faults, they can never change them.

I would say the same thing to you as I would say to any woman that has gone through a similar situation.  WHY DO YOU WANT HER BACK?  Is she someone you respect or admire?  From her actions I can‘t see why.  Is she someone that represents the kind of values you want your kids to learn from?  Again, her actions wouldn‘t indicate that.  You say you love her...why?  What do you love about her?  Her caring and nurturing nature...the one that tries to shift blame onto you when you‘re hurting and need her help to make you feel better?

It‘s time to back away from the situation and get perspective.  You are in charge of your life and you have to make a value judgement about whether she is worthy of being in it.  From what you describe it sounds to me as if that‘s a no-brainer.

It‘s HER responsibility to convince you, through her actions...not her excuses, that she‘s worthy of being a part of yours and your children‘s life.  To take full blame and responsibility without excuse for her actions.  As scary, and hard as it might seem to change your life and go it alone, I can tell you from first-hand experience that it WILL be hard, but you will eventually be better off for it.

The right things to do in life are seldom the easiest things to do.  But if it‘s right, it‘s right...and that‘s what you SHOULD do.

I understand your feelings...most of us have all been there.  But this is NOT a competition for who has the better life.  This is about making sure YOU take care of YOUR life.  His life and what he does is totally inconsequential and isn‘t something for you to even worry or think about.

It‘s time to think about you and your future...not him...not his new wife...not the life you once had together.  The person that comes out on top is the one that keeps the clearest FOCUS on where they are going and what‘s important.

When my ex-wife and I broke up it really bothered me that within a couple of weeks she had a new boyfriend.  In the meantime I was busy working 60-70 hours a week and raising two teenage boys.  But the fact is, I knew what had to be done.  Raise my sons, give them a good start in life, keep focused on the essentials, and make progress every day.  We all got through it and are better off for it.  Although it‘s not about competing with your ex, I can clearly say that when it comes to the parent these boys respect and admire most...I won...without a shred of doubt.

The lesson learned?  Relationships come and go.  If the value of who you are as a person is based on relationships, that value will come and go along with them.  If the value of who you are as a person is based on things that last...such as being a good parent...that value will last forever.

I‘ll give you a clue...it‘s not easy being a single dad either...but it‘s doable.

We‘ve all felt the rage you‘re feeling, they get to go have fun while you‘re trapped taking care of the essentials.  The only thing I can tell you is to take solace in the fact that you are doing the RIGHT thing, and the IMPORTANT things.

More importantly, don‘t let your rage affect the real job at hand of being a single parent.  This is the time to demonstrate to your kids the importance of being strong through adversity and not allowing yourself the "pleasure" of giving into anger.  You do that by living it.  You have the most important job in the universe...being the full-time role model for how to be an adult.  Put aside your personal feelings and do the job as you know it needs to be done.

NEWSFLASH TO E-HARMONY.COM

People lie when taking your quiz....garbage in, garbage out.

END TRANSMISSION.

Besides that...Daytona‘s not all that anyways.  The track‘s too big.  You can see it all better on TV.

NOW...had he offered to take you to Darlington, or better yet, BRISTOL...well....THAT would be a hard decision...

Time to put on your negotiating hat!!!!

**wink**

I‘d have an uneasy feeling if I were going to Plant City too.

Left my dog there once when I was away for Christmas.  Only problem I had when I came back was he only wanted to ride in the bed of pickup trucks and wanted to marry his cousin.

Also...who cares what he does?  He‘s allowed to be a hyprocrite if he chooses to be.  Now that he‘s out of your life it has no effect on you.

You think THAT‘s funny...here‘s the real, no-nonsense story behind that little quip I made..

I did leave my dog to be taken care of by my (then) girlfriend who lived in Plant City. When I returned and went to pick up my dog from her house, her ex-cousin-in-law was visiting (cousin of her ex).  I made my "cute" little comment about the dog..and it got a bit of a laugh from everyone.  Shortly thereafter, the cousin-in-law left and my ex-girlfriends REALLY started laughing.  Turns out her cousin-in-law‘s parents are first cousins.....imagine that!!!

Quite honestly, your list says a lot more about what you value in relationships than it does about him.

Let‘s recap.  You want to stay with him because:

He‘s an okay father that just needs prompting sometimes, but he makes the good bucks, cooks well for you and is great in the sack.  He doesn‘t do any bad things he shouldn‘t do other than being morally bankrumpt when it comes to taking every opportunity presented to him to get laid.

I guess that would be better than having someone around who is a totally dedicated father who puts his kids and family first, is firmly committed to the relationship, but can‘t boil water without burning it, is an average wage earner, and just gets by in bed.

One can forgive the former, but not the latter I suppose.

I vote you stay with him.  You sound like the perfect couple.

**SARCASM MODE OFF***

...And this just serves as further proof of why drugs are bad...

Okay, now that the sarcasm mode is off...

Granted, no one wants to be with someone who displays those negative characteristics.  It wasn‘t the negative characteristics I was referring to, but the one‘s you listed as positives.  The fact that a person earns a good living, is a great cook, and a wonderful lover PALE in comparison to the values that make a great partner.  Those are nice to have features, not must have‘s.

And as far as breaking up a family, no...I don‘t think anyone here was in a hurry to break apart their families.  But it ceases to be a "family" at some point when the reasons you have for staying together are not based on the values you‘d like your children to learn as far as why people SHOULD stay together.

Take a look back at your list of positives.  I don‘t see any mention of him cherishing whatever time he has with his family, making sure he makes time for just you and him, respecting the contribution you have made to the relationship and telling you so every now and again, doing special "just dad" things with the kids.  It‘s not four or five big things like not abusing you, making a good paycheck, and being good in bed....it should be a million and one "little things" that suggests he loves you and his family.

Those are the type of behaviors that would indicate he would likely make whatever changes are necessary to keep to keep together the things he values most in life.

The fact that I don‘t see a whole lot of "meat" behind why he‘s a good husband tells me that the reasons you‘ve been willing to tolerate his incessantly bad behaviors is because you are placing value on things that don‘t really mean all that much.

GEEEZ!!!

Those all seem like a LOT of work considering all a guy wants is a little nookie!!

He sounds like a great guy.  What is it exactly that eliminates him as a love interest?

The reason I ask is because, obviously the things you were looking for before lead you to the wrong kind of person.  I‘m wondering if this is a case of you looking at the wrong things again and dismissing a person that might be right for you.

Whew!!!!  That was good CB....

Now, how much do I owe ya...do you take credit cards??

Yeah..the last one was great.  Especially the guy who got convinced to take off all his clothes in the garage before entering the house.

I think Pnai is right.  There‘s a LOT of different reasons why people (not just men) cheat.  On the other hand, I agree a lot of those reasons are based on selfishness.

The thing I wonder about is the following:

I‘ve always assumed that if, for whatever reason, one person feels the urge and is presented with the opportunity to cheat, they should immediately talk about it with the SO before they act on it.

So let‘s say, for example, your husband comes to you and wants to talk about a situation he‘s facing where there is some girl giving him attention and she clearly wants to go further with it and so does he.  And the reason he says he wants to go futher with it is because he doesn‘t feel you appreciate him or find him attractive, but this other person does.  He‘s flattered by it and and feels like acting on it.

What‘s your reaction?  Do you get mad?  Are you hurt?  What do you do?  Truly search your gut and tell me what your gut reaction would be.

That‘s okay Alex...this board if FILLED with generalizations...most of which I‘ve learned to overlook.

Again...for the most part I write that off as a factor of youth.  For whatever reason younger people tend to see things in black and white.  It always amazes me how many shades of grey there are the older I get.

Hurting123 wrote:

And I forgot to add.....my looks and bod are pretty darn nice.  My age is typically guessed ten years younger than I am. What I‘m saying is this:  With porn addiciton it does NOT matterif you are over weight or with a sexy hot bod.  When I wastracking my husband‘s porn via spyware it became clear the link betweenporn and our sex life.  First of all, we had sex 3-4x aweek.  BUT, he would be doing porn multiple times daily includingwithin hours after sex (ie: soon as I walked out the door).  Iasked him the other day:  "You said in the past your sex drive isgood because you are so healthy....is that still the truth/yourbelief?"  His answer: "No.  The porn definitely drove my sexdrive higher".  (I know some guys will have less sex drive withwife, however).  So then the hard question:  "Who were youthinking of when you had sex with me?".  His answers:  "Thoseporn pics of the girls who SAY they are 18 but by the pics they lookmore like 13.  Disgusting.  But the truth.  And giventhe choice between living in a "life that is pretty but full of lies"or a "life that is truth but full of disgusting visions".....I‘d takethe truth.  Right now I‘m doing what so many women do.....sinceI‘ve been living a lie with my husband for the past decade, what wasthe truth?  I want to hear it all.  Every last disgustingdetail. What was the truth....???? This is one of the many normalresponses per some of the books I‘ve read.  My life right now isjust a rollercoaster of emotions....that‘s all I can say.  Arollercoaster.

I agree sex can be an addiction and the women in porn are not really the issue that men are typically seeking, but rather the fantasy of the act they are seeking.  But I don‘t agree that viewing porn is by definition a sexual addiction.

Assume the following.  The guy is looking at porn, but only certain types of porn.  He‘s not pursuing anything beyond that (strip clubs, online services, etc.).  When you finally catch up with his porn habit he tells you he looks at that type of porn because if fulfills a fantasy he knows you are not willing to do.

Now what?  Is that an addiction, or a normal way of resolving a fantasy harmlessly?  Given that it‘s not child porn (which would be illegal obviously), isn‘t he entitled to his fantasies, particularly if he knows you are not willing to go along with them?

I can feel for what you‘re going through CC.  I too have a good friend that would no doubt love it if our relationship went further than just friendship, but it‘s just not there.  I‘ve questioned myself incessantly about why I don‘t feel anything for her.  She‘s a great lady, good sense of humor, very classy, attractive...but there are just certain things about the way she acts and things she does that drives me nuts.  But then again, I only have to deal with her as a friend and nothing more.

As hard as it might be though, I‘d definately suggest you tell your friend you just don‘t feel that kind of connection with him.  I wish I had done that.  Instead I just told her I wasn‘t ready for ANY kind of relationship at this point in my life...which really is true...but there‘s a bit more to it than that.  Now my problem is, if I ever DID meet someone and decide I wanted to try a relationship with them, I‘d have to tell her the rest of the truth and she‘d really be hurt.  DAMN!! whatabummer, huh?

Take the tough road now....I sure wish I had.

Before you introduce them let‘s do a quick check:

For example, the man talks incessantly. Non-stop.

Hopefully your friend is either the quiet type that likes to sit back and listen or is stone-cold deaf...

Repeats stories over an over. Drives me nuts some nights because you can‘t get a word in edge wise sometimes or get away to talk to someone else sometimes.

Hopefully you‘re friend is very forgetful...or better yet, has alzheimer‘s.  She‘ll be fascinated by his stories no matter how many times she‘s heard them.

Kewl!!!!  Can I refer her to you for a reference on that??

I suppose that would be okay to just treat you like a friend.  So that means, you won‘t be mad if he tells you he‘ll be over later and then decides to go do something else, and then tells you about it a couple of days later.  Tell you he‘ll call you then calls  whenever he gets around to it..maybe a couple of weeks or so.  Calls you up at the last minute to ask if you want to go do something with him he‘s had planned for a while...

Those are all the the kind of things I do with my friends...and they do the same thing to me.  None of us ever get upset over it.  Would that work for you?

Yeah, but the question is, do you send yourself flowers the next day?

I used to think being friends with someone would be a good place to start, but I‘m no longer sure that‘s really a reasonable assumption anymore.  For me, it really boils down to the Venus/Mars thing.  Women tend to treat their friends with more consideration than guys do...and they expect that same kind of consideration when a man steps into that picture...it‘s not necessarily wrong...just natural I think.

If I tell a guy friend I‘ll see him up at the bar later on, and I don‘t show up, I don‘t have any concerns whatsoever that he‘s going to wonder where I‘m at or be hurt by the fact I didn‘t show up.  He‘ll be busy doing his own thing and not be dependent on me.  Is that a lack of respect?  I don‘t think so and neither does he.  I just know what to expect out of him and he knows what to expect out of me...no big deal.

In the same situation with two women friends I don‘t think it would play out the same way.  The one left waiting at the bar would be crushed that her friend didn‘t call and let her know what was going on.  Now if I‘m friends with a woman, and I am, I‘ll take that into consideration.  On the other hand, she shouldn‘t be upset if I call at the last minute and tell her something else has come up...but for some reason that part never seems to work...go figure...

Sorry, but I don‘t have any answers on this one.  Dealing with the whole Venus/Mars differences thing and feeling like it‘s somehow more my responsibility to accommodate Venus than it is for her to accommodate Mars is what lead to my TOW name.

As far as your friend goes...that‘s why I‘ve come to the conclusion that I should put a whole lot more emphasis on a person‘s background than I have in the past...if I were to ever get into another relationship.  We all tend to model after what we learned from our parents, so it‘s not a bad indicator at all of what you can expect from someone.

I suppose that‘s because the ONLY valid schedule for getting it done is the schedule YOU decided on?

Yeah...I‘ll agree....communications is a BIG issue.

***SARCASM MODE OFF***

SummerBreeze wrote:

EDIT TO ADD: What difference does it make who approaches who? Guysalways claim to enjoy the chase, but yet, they want to be approached?WTF??? Y‘all don‘t make a bit of sense to me. That‘s it, I‘m becoming alesbian.

Just remember in making that transition.

It‘s no longer an "inner thigh"...it‘s referred to as a "napkin"

Your "mystery" pipe could be a couple of things, but if I were to guess I would think it is some form of pressure equalizer for the sewage system.  It‘s kind of like if you turn a bottle of water upside down to let the water run out how the water has to go out in spurts in order to let air come in through the same hole as the water is going out.  If, on the other hand, you poke a hole in the bottom of the bottle of water, the water runs out smoothly.  That pipe is acting like the hole cut in the bottom of the bottle allowing the sewage to run through the pipes smoothly...but that‘s just a guess from your description.

Here‘s a great article on things to think about when you‘re considering buying a house...hope it helps.

http://realestate.msn.com/selling/Articlebankrate.aspx?cp-documentid=178230&GT1=7636

Recently I‘ve been intrigued by the movie "Heat", which appears on the surface to be a cops & robbers chase movie, but the more I watch it (which I think it‘s one of those movies you kind of HAVE to watch more than once because of it‘s complexity) I tend to think of it more as a morality play about  the risk/reward of relationships & commitments and value/weight they place on your life.

I find it interesting that the only two characters that come out of it alive are Val Kilmer (who walks away from his wife & kid, not because he wants to, but because he has no choice), and Al Pacino (who ultimately admits he can‘t do what he needs to do and sustain a relationship).  It all keeps drawing back to the statement made by Robert DeNiro throughout the movie about "not having anything in your life you‘re not willing to walk away from in 30 seconds flat."  And of course, DeNiro doesn‘t make it because he doesn‘t follow his own rule.

I just wondered if anyone else has seen this and what your impressions were.

Then there‘s the other side of the coin.  I‘ve never had a problem talking about personal things with someone I‘m close to, unless I feel that in doing so I‘ll be judged harshly or misunderstood.  In my last relationship that‘s where I found myself.

Early on in the relationship I "tested the waters" about things that were bothering me, but it was clear that conversation wasn‘t going to go well if I continued it...so I shut up.  Then you find yourself four years into a relationship and you‘ve got to get it settled, you open up and you get exactly what you expected....and worse...because now they feel like you weren‘t honest with them.

My point here is that there are situations such as mine where the guy is fine with talking about things that are bothering him, as long as it‘s a rational, non-judgemental discussion.  But if it‘s going to end up in a confrontation...they‘ll just shut up and deal with it...and eventually they way they deal with it is to break up.

The fact is Jeg, I think you need to come to terms with the fact that it IS just a sexual relationship.  That‘s where it started and that‘s probably where it is and should remain.

The reason I say this is, what do you think the chances are that if he DOES divorce his wife and end up with you that it‘s going to work out?  Quite frankly, that‘s not very likely.  It‘s more likely that he‘s ending up with you because he doesn‘t want to be alone...not because he‘s in love with you.

A reasonable guy doesn‘t end a marriage and jump right into another relationship.  If he cares anything at all about having a committed relationship he‘ll take the time to try and work things out, when and if they don‘t work out, they will break up and he‘ll probably spend some time getting his head back together about what went wrong and the type of person he wants to be with before heading into another relationship.

That‘s a reasonable guy.  I‘m not saying there aren‘t guys that won‘t act differently..end a relationship and jump right into another so they have someone to do their laundry.  But that‘s Jerry Springer fodder....is that where you want to be?

Let me make sure I‘ve got this right...

Person A tried to open up and talk about a subject.

Person B shuts it down and makes harsh judements about it.

and that makes person A selfish and emotionally immature?  Hopefully you‘re just venting and that explains the lack of rationality in your response.

Or...maybe you didn‘t notice, I‘m a GUY.  Kinda shoots down some of those generalizations you were throwing around, huh?

Well...I‘m going to guess you aren‘t going to like what I have to say...probably because it‘s going to sound a LOT like what your parents have probably been saying to you, and you‘ve obviously been ignoring.  Given the fact I‘m probably about the same age as them that explains it...but here goes.

Yes, the guy is an ass.  However, you have to assume your portion of blame here also, or else this same pattern is going to repeat itself.

You‘re 19 and you decided you wanted to "play house" and be an adult.  Welcome to the adult world where things HURT BAD when you make mistakes.  Not quite like High School, huh?  Here, it‘s FOR REAL.

First the positives.  You‘re going into the military.  Good for you.  I spent almost 10 years in there and I can guarantee you that if you give it all you‘ve got and play by their rules you‘re going to come out more prepared than most people your age to be successful and make something of your life.  Another positive was that at least you were smart enough not to get pregnant and have to carry the weight of this individual around with you for the rest of your life.  You are in the fortunate position that you can walk away and forget he ever existed.  Do that!!!!  And don‘t look back...you don‘t need any kind of association with him and that includes mutual friends, ex-girlfriends..etc.  They are still in the process of being children and destroying their lives.  You are doing something about yours.  Go forward and forget they ever existed.  It‘s nothing but a bunch of destructive people building a case for getting a slot on the Jerry Springer show.

Now...as to your stupidity.  It doesn‘t take much reading for a sane, mature adult to see you set yourself up for this by getting involved with a whole TRUCKLOAD of losers.  How many signs do you need to have thrown into your face before you realize you‘re involved with a bunch of trailer trash drama kings/queens that think life is supposed to be like reality TV shows?  The guy doesn‘t have a meaningful job or direction in life, leaves you, gets a girl pregnant, and you take him BACK AND MARRY HIM?  The girl he left you for, and gets pregnant, you BECOME FRIENDS WITH?  Pleeez!!  Maybe instead of focusing on his faults which are more than evident you need to focus on what faults you have for being so incredibly naive and placing yourself into this hell-hole of a life.

Yes, if you are tired of being hurt then it‘s time to GROW UP.  And growing up means you operate with your BRAIN ENGAGED...24/7.  The world is full of people like this...welcome to the real world.  In reality TV land you have to endure them at least for the run of the TV show...in real life you can walk away.  If you continue to go through life expecting people to change and get better you are going to end up with a very long and terrible life.  They are exactly who they appear to be and you can assume they are going to continue to be that way.  There is only one person in the whole world capable of changing and that is YOU, and that‘s only if you want to and are willing to make the effort to do it.  If the rest of these bozos want to change then they‘ll get up off their realitity-tv loving asses, decide on some realistic goals, and put some effort into something other than playing "Drama Life."  But none of that is your concern.  Your concern is becoming a better you and that involves distancing yourself from low-lifes and surrounding yourself with motivated, goal-oriented people...and becoming one yourself.  The military will solve that one for you if you give it a chance.

Sorry if that all sounds so blunt.  But there are a thousand and one people that will give you sympathy and encouragement.  If I pissed you off...good.  You need to get pissed off and use that for motivation to leave the crap behind and move forward.  My skills are in parenting...so grow up, wake up, smell the coffee, and get busy.

Life‘s thataway ------------->>

PS: Listen to your parents...they‘ve been at this a long time and they know what they‘re talking about.

PSS: I used to be a drill sergeant for a while..so at least you now know what to expect....

The only important "why" in all of this is:

WHY DO YOU CARE?

That‘s his life, his and other people‘s choices.  Whatever motivated them to do what they did is none of your concern.  You‘re not going to learn anything that would make you feel better.  You should feel better simply based on the fact you figured out what a loser he was and made the right decision.

You want closure...do exactly what you‘re doing now.  Move on and don‘t look back.  Hitler was a bad guy too.  Who cares what motivated him?  He‘s a bad guy and he got what he deserved.  Thus endeth the lesson.

There is no "closure" (God I hate that word)...only more hurt.  Write it off to some people are just bad people and only operate in thier own self-interests...and move on.

My opinion?

People are who they are.  Would it be nice if he wanted to be a better parent?  Yes.  Is that anything you have control over?  NO.

You only have control over what YOU do, not what he does, not what his girlfriend does.  Wishing they were different does nothing.  Lecturing them or trying to get them to do things they way you want is "controlling".  So your only option, and the only option anyone on this earth has, is to control what YOU can control.

If he wants to give up his parental rights, that his choice.  He‘s allowed to make it...so be it.  You‘re choice is to at least make sure he supports his child and does it consistently.  You have control over that.

It would be nice if everyone acted in a "proper" way, but they don‘t.  So accept it and take charge of what you have control over....you and your child‘s life.

First and foremost, get the idea of him "never seeing his son again" out of your head.  That‘s the WRONG thing to do and places your son dead in the middle of this battle.  Any action by you in that regard will NOT be taken lightly by the court and will ultimately work against you.  Once you get in front of a lawyer you‘re going to find out that‘s probably not an option anyway, unless he‘s been convicted of something like drugs or abuse.

Here‘s realistically what you can expect.  Laws vary from state to state, they are relatively consistent...although your actual mileage may vary...

If you have been a stay-at-home mom then you can likely expect a certain amount of temporary spousal support.  That will be limited spousal support only lasting for a while.  Given it‘s only been a six year marriage it won‘t be much and it won‘t be for long.

You probably are no longer going to have the luxury of being a stay-at-home mom.  The court will require you to assume your own level of responsibility for supporting yourself and your child.  Whatever spousal support you get will only be meant for you to get on your feet in this regard.  I‘d strongly suggest using it that way.

In all likelihood the value of the marital assets will be equally divided along with an equal division of the liabilities (credit cards, etc.).  If you own your home you‘ll probably be better off selling it, paying off the bills, and each taking your cut if there‘s anything left.  There are other ways to do it, but they tend to get pretty complicated.  You need to start figuring this stuff out in terms of where your household stands financially.  I‘d also consider trying to find a job so you‘re not caught short.

As far as child support, that will be based on his income and your "potential" income if you aren‘t working.  Each of you will be equally responsible based on your ability to contribute when it comes to this calculation.  This calculation isn‘t permanent and can be changed over time if either your or his income level changes.  However, don‘t forget about college for your son.  Make sure those responsibilities are laid out in the child support agreement.

As far as your college, unless you worked to put him through some sort of schooling the court will probably not find him responsible for that.  If he agrees to do it anyway, great, but I wouldn‘t count on it.

I know you would like to feel you deserve more than that due to his cheating, but that‘s what "no fault" divorce means..which is typically how most states deal with this.  Things change, however, in some jurisdictions if it can be proven he did infect you with an STD.

As far as lawyers, it‘s an unfortunate fact of life that you may have to ante up for one.  There are some charitable organizations that offer them, but for the most part they will "assist" you in doing your own divorce, and won‘t be terribly helpful in resolving the stumbling blocks.

The first step I would take is to find out what your county offers in terms of self-help divorces.  In my state, for instance, you can do all your own paperwork and only pay filing fees and such.  They even offer legal advice on a limited basis and even mediation services that both parties have to pay for.  The judges in my county REQUIRE both parties to attend mediation before they will consider the divorce.  But be aware, this is NOT easy and it takes a LOT of time and effort on your part.

You might look into seeing if some of the lawyers in your area are willing to work with you on a payment plan.  But that‘s going to be predicated on you having an income of your own.

Sorry if none of this sounds very promising, but divorces are not pleasant, and you have to prepare yourself for single life which means supporting yourself and your portion of your son‘s support.  I just want you to be realistic about what‘s ahead.

Well...let‘s put things in perspective.  He‘s sorry for putting you in this situation.  I‘m sure he is.  I‘m sure he‘s even sorrier that if this proves to be his child he‘s going to either have to get a second job so he can support it or go back to jail.  I‘m sure he‘s sorry for not supporting his kids they way he should have..to the point he had to be put in jail for not paying child support.  Things have to get pretty bad for that to happen.  Were you caught by surprise that he hadn‘t been paying child support?

The fact is, had he not gone to jail I doubt seriously, on his own, he would have magically decided to start supporting his kids the way he should have.  Yeah...he‘s made some changes...changes he knew he had to make or spend the next year in jail.

What do you do?  None of this is your problem...it‘s his.  Your problem is being in a relationship with someone who has to be FORCED to live up to his responsibilities as a parent.  I‘m sure he‘s good with your kids...heck...he doesn‘t have to pay for THEM.

Thanks for admiring it...I just find it natural myself.

Why do some men do it?  Since I don‘t do it I can only guess, but my guess is that they are afraid of being alone.  They do it for the same reason women do it.  Co-dependence.  They tend to not really believe they can handle life by themselves and have to have someone there to avoid loneliness, or dealing with all the every day details of living your life.

Why don‘t I feel I need to get into another relationship is probably the more important question.  No matter how you slice it, relationships take effort.  Effort that, in many cases, could be used toward something more constructive.  I guess I view relationships as a luxury that you can afford if everything else in your life is working right.  It‘s all a matter of priorities.

To some degree, I think people hurt themselves by thinking there is a "soul mate" out there somewhere waiting to be found.  I‘m an engineer by trade, so I probably have a more logical view of the world and not as given in to "spiritual" answers for happiness.  Happiness in a relationship, I believe, can be found when (if) you find someone you share a lot of things with...background, values, viewpoints, sense of humor...as well as physical attraction of course.  It takes some time to learn these things about a person.  Therefore, there‘s a real investment on your part to even BEGIN to figure out if this is a person you want to invest in further.  In the case of my break-up with my ex, I had my hands full raising two teenage sons and working a more than full-time job.  Not much time for investing in anything but the basics.

foofie stuff can be found at Bed, Bath, and Beyond...

Kewl stuff is found at Lowe‘s and Home Depot..

Wow...good point!!!!  It never occurred to me signing his rights away might eliminate his obligation for support.  I was just assuming it was giving over complete custody.

If that truly is the case then he can ask it all he wants, but don‘t agree to it.  He has a responsibility to support this child whether he wants to have visitation or not.

If you walk away from this discussion with one thing only it is this:

Child support is the RIGHT OF THE CHILD.  It is not YOUR right, it is not HIS right.  If the child is under 18 they cannot possibly sign away their rights.  You must protect the rights of your child by demanding child support be paid appropriately.  PERIOD.

Good God!!  This is one of those situations I hope I NEVER have to face.

I wouldn‘t presume to offer advice in this case.  This is one of the most personal decisions you have to make, and I think you have to make it independent of anyone else‘s advice about what THEY might do.

If you do decide to take it I would make sure there are provisions set for her to support the child financially.  She hasn‘t been held accountable so far and that‘s why she sees no penalty in continuing to do what she does.  I suspect you could also demand she be placed into an in-residence drug rehab program and is held responsible for any and all medical bills associated with this child‘s care....and those need to be court-ordered to make sure they are complied with.

If, on the other hand, you decide not to take the baby which is completely understandable, you need to understand that children that are adopted on average achieve better grades, live in better income brackets, and tend to go to college at a much higher rate than the average.  You are not doing the child any harm by allowing it to be placed for adoption.

Just so you know, my nephew is adopted.  He graduated from college, has two beautiful girls of his own, and works as a youth minister in Louisiana.  Not bad for a kid that started off life as the child of a drug addict.

BINGO!!!

Okay..I know there‘s probably not a lot of people on this board that are into guns, but I came across this story on one of the gun forums I frequent...and it‘s just TOO GOOD not to share...
----------------------------------------

How is sending an anonymous letter going to stop him from saying it‘s a jealous ex that‘s just trying to stir up trouble?  That makes no sense whatsoever.

Whether you‘re playing cop or not the same thing applies, if you want to jump into the middle of something, no matter what your "good" intentions might be, be prepared for everything that might come along with it.

He has her ear.  He‘s lied to her and knows how to lie to her.  You don‘t have her ear.  You‘re a nameless voice out of nowhere.  The likelihood that you will have more influence on her than he will is pretty slim.  On the other hand, his figuring out it was you that sent it is probably pretty good.

Got good insurance on your car and belongings?  You may need it.  He‘s not a very reputable person from the sound of things.  I doubt he‘ll be very reputable in dealing with you if he decides it‘s you stirring up trouble with his home life.

Personally, I think using humor to piss someone off is a WHOLE lot more fun than anger.  It really makes the veins in their neck start to stick out.

Here‘s the same conversation modified...

*******************************

Asshole:   "hey, yvette it‘s me.

*****silence******

asshole:  Are you there?

me:   oh..sorry..I had the asshole filter turned on on the phone.  now I can hear you.  what do you want?

asshole:  I need to ask you something, but before I do, I want you to know that I‘m not accusing you of anything, I‘m just asking, ok?

me:  what?

asshole:  Cindy‘s tires were slashed yesterday, did you have anything to do with that?

me:  hold on..let me check, it has been a pretty busy week and all.  Let‘s see....yesterday...nope...I was busy all day making plans with my terrorist buddies to storm the Pentagon.  I think I had Cindy‘s tire slashing scheduled for the week after next.

asshole:  I told you, I was just asking.  It just doesn‘t make sense...

me:   Make sense?  Well that would involve some form of THINKING wouldn‘t it?  Don‘t tell me you started a new hobby of using your brain cells for something other than grunting, farting, and trying to have sex with small animals?  Gosh, I bet your Mom‘s gonna be REAL PROUD of you once you graduate from having to ride that small yellow school bus every day.  Have my daughter home by 6:00.  Click.  (I hung up).

CB:

As was mentioned by several others here, your friend needs to make a resport to Child Protective Services or whatever agency is in charge of handling abuse charges.

If your friend won‘t do that you need to let her know that you are obligated to do it whether she does or not.  This is really not a matter of choice, this is a matter of obligation.  Whether the story she told you is true or not doesn‘t matter.  The investigation will determine that.  But there is no choice in this matter, either she reports it or you have to.

There are some advantages to having been born a Texan.  The love of country music is genetically implanted.

Seriously, country has come a very long way in the last few years with the new generation of artists.  A lot of the country purists aren‘t crazy about it, but I think it‘s about the only place where artists and songwriters can take a chance on something new.  The pop, rock, and hip hop producers just want everyone to sound the same and do the same kinds of music.  At least in Nashville they‘re taking some chances.

As for me...Toby Keith is THE MAN!!!  Hell...I even bought a Ford truck cuz of him!!!

Obviously you‘re pretty hurt by all this, but I think you need to ask yourself why he‘s lying about it.  It seems obvious to me from what you‘ve said he‘s feels pretty ashamed of himself, and of course calling him "sick" is only going to make that worse...not better.  That does nothing but drive him further into deception and deeper underground.

He‘s not proud of what he‘s doing, but if you want to try and get this fixed you‘re going to have to turn the conversation from berrating to healing.  Think about it..that‘s more like a mom scolding her son for doing something bad, than two adults trying to deal with an issue that‘s driving them apart.

In all likelihood he doesn‘t understand how his fixation with this porn is making you feel, and I don‘t think you understand how your reaction to it is making it worse.

Totally agree with Tera on this one!!!

This is over when you decide it‘s over by not caring one whit about what he‘s doing.  If he‘s happy, so what?  If it blows up in his face, and it probably will (Karma‘s a bitch, ya know), so what?  It‘s none of your business and you don‘t care.  When you get to that point it‘s magic...all the pain and anger just dissipate like a vapor.

I realize that‘s hard when you both work together.  Hell, I had to live in the same neighborhood with my ex two blocks away.  She‘s taking trips to Canada to see her boyfriend and I‘m dealing with raising the kids fulltime.  It didn‘t seem fair.  But once I instituted the "no contact" rule it was amazing how much more focused and organized my life became...not to mention how much happier everyone was...including the kids.

There‘s only so much bandwidth a person has in their head.  If you fill it with anger and resentment, you won‘t have any room left for positive stuff for yourself.

Try this:  look in the mirror..imagine someone is telling you about your ex‘s exploits..roll your eyes, shake your head and say, "phhht...who cares?"  If he tries to talk to you at work, walk away in mid-sentence as if he‘s not even there and get on with your business.  It works wonders.

Glad you found the site and I hope it‘s of help to you.

I completely understand the disorientation caused by a situation like this.  It‘s hard to hold your emotions in check when you‘ve been hurt by someone to that degree, but the reality is, if this thing to work I really think you have to separate yourself from the emotions and try as best you can to think rationally about what you will need from him in order to feel there is hope for the marriage to work long term.

Men, and women, cheat for LOTS of reasons.  Understanding that reason is important, but those are just words that anyone can manufacture, and they may not be the truth.  The same goes with promises.  Ultimately, though, it comes down to actions.  The road to recovering the relationship would have been a WHOLE lot easier had he ended the relationship due to his concience...but he didn‘t.

In my opinion, it‘s now about actions more than it is words.  Certainly you need to make sure he understands the depths of the hurt he put you through in this circumstance.  If he really cares about you and his family he will be moved to action to show you he does care.  This is either going to be a wake-up call for him to re-evalu