WomanSavers.com Forum / MEN'S AREA / Experiment

A couple weeks before my 7th birthday, my mother‘s boyfriend, in a violent rage, broke her hand right in front of me.

And this is but one of many instances of this.  These two were together and perpetuating this drama for 7 years, from my age 3 to age 10.

So, yeah.  I have plenty of experience with DV.

But you know something?  This isn‘t talked about very much but that doesn‘t mean nobody is paying attention: my mother was just as violent as her boyfriend.  The only difference was, she wasn‘t as strong so she didn‘t really win physical things.  Oh, but her tongue... she has told me some of the most negative things... things that I believe are the reason why to this day, I can only remember bits and pieces of my childhood.  I‘ve completely blocked out roughly a third of my life.

A little deductive reasoning now- We say that women are just as abusive as men.  But women abuse primarily in a much different way.  Ask any 7th-grade girl who isn‘t part of the popular clique.  Sticks and stones only break bones. Words can shatter the soul.  This form of abuse is completely unchecked in our society, which some women infer as license to go further, like my brother in-law‘s wife, who has tried to stab him in his sleep.  Where can he go?  Who will believe him?  Neither the police nor any local social programs care, simply because he is a man.

A lot of people in our culture demand that we view these problems only from a woman‘s perspective.  Despite the fact that I was raised to do it, I won‘t. I refuse to, and for a very good reason: I have a conscience.

Some movement here while I am on vacations... I don‘t know where to start.

Wire:

A little deductive reasoning now- We say that women are just as abusive as men.  But women abuse primarily in a much different way.  Ask any 7th-grade girl who isn‘t part of the popular clique.  Sticks and stones only break bones. Words can shatter the soul.

What reminds me of something. My current girlfriend used to be mocked by her female friends for being a 20 year old virgin. She said she used to be so upset about the mean comments that many times she thought of "doing it" just to get that out of the way.

Rianon, this discussion keeps geting bigger and more confusing. This forum aparently does not have the proper tools for editing posts in a good manner. I will try to divide everything i must say in a few posts and I‘ll have your quotes in bold. Try to do the same.

No - she probably was married to a good man to begin with - before she had children. Makes all

the difference in the world.

My mother wasn‘t married when she got pregnant of me. I was her first kid. And that is the point. The kind of man she was with.

I made the choices I made based on the information I had at the time. I sure as hell wasn‘t planning on becoming a wife - or a mother - when the "vasectomy" turned out to be false. There is a saying that life is what happens when you are busy making other plans.

I didn‘t "plan" to be a single parent. I rose to the challenge.

So, are you saying that this man was perfect, except for lying about vasectomy(how old was he when he said that to you ? Young men usually doesn‘t have vasectomies.) He had a job ? A promisssing carrer ? No drinking, personality issues ? If that is so what did prevent him from paying support for you and your love child ?

Men also rarely use contraception - they rely on women to do it. They also don‘t get pregnant, don‘t carry the child to term, and often aren‘t the ones to bear the responsibility of raising a child. They never have to experience abortion, and they don‘t live with the aftermath of what goes with it. Many of them don‘t plan on sticking around much after conception. Many of them think only with their dick.

From this point on I can only keep reapeating the same thing over and over. Men cannot use contraception because it does‘t exist. They have less options. That is the WHOLE point. Wome have many options. I would love to be able to take a pill if that means reducing the chance of for the next 20 years paying child support. But I CAN‘T do that. If a woman got pregnant, and has to experiment abortion or adoption or raise a child on her own, she already has failed, because there was something she could have done before. And even if she already has failed on that, she still has those choices and can avoid all the responsability by doing an abortion or giving the baby to adoption. Or, if she was an smart woman, and was sleeping with a dude with big bucks, she still can live from child support.

The choice is on the woman because she bears 100% of the consequences, either way.

How come she bares 100% of the consequences if a guy can, totally against his will, have to pay to support the child ?

Wrong statistics. One in two marriages ends in divorce in America, which makes it more than 43%. Second marriages, statistically, end just as frequently as first marriages.

Not it‘s not wrong. If you look in diverse sources, second and third marriages end in divorce more than the 1^st. This is true for my country also.

Most women - who have lived any length of time - have been single mothers at some point. Not all are like me - choosing to remain single. But enough of them are that my life is not at all unusual. I would say about 2/3 of the women I have worked with have been single moms. Query most of the women on this website and you will find that quite a lot of them are working, single mothers - or have been - at some point in their lives.

I don‘t know if that is true, you are not showing any statistical data, only your overall impression, but anyway taht is a sign of something wrong.

Well, sure, all of us could have avoided the situation. Hmmm...it all could have been avoided from simply not having sex in the first place. Abstinence still remains the most effective means of birth control (tongue in cheek). The point is, there are A LOT of us out there. I don‘t appreciate your derogatory remarks about single mothers, or your obvious prejudice about "how they ended up in such situations."

I think the main point here, and I am repeating the same thing again, is that women have many choices when it comes down to prevent being in taht situation.

And I am not a guy who says stuff to be popular, so if you don‘t apreciate my remarks, it‘s a sign that I am saying the truth.

Not all of us are "loose" women who sleep around. And for every woman who ends up in that situation, where are the fathers?

Someone as “loose” as they are.

Putting a child in daycare to go to the gym... What is your point about that? What would a single father do? Probably ask his mother, or find someone next door to watch his kids so that he can go to the gym. Would you be upset with him for doing that?

The point about that is explicit in that sentence. Nothing else is needed to add. If you did not understood, read again.

The average American woman works outside the home, because most American families cannot live on one income. Child care is usually necessary because mothers have to work - not just because they are going to the gym, or need to have their nails done. American stay at home moms usually live on a shoestring budget, and they make that choice because they want to be home with their children, and in that case, they can‘t afford nannies, or much else.

It is only the rich that can afford nannies. And as far as "living entirely off husbands" that usually only happens among the "rich" as well. You might see it in "reality" shows. You don‘t see much of it in American life.

Maybe there is some true to it. But I think the case in more cases than not, is taht married women with children would prefer not to work, and if they do, is because they need to. My mom always worked and still works, but she needs to. I have looked at this site:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/famee.t05.htm

By my calculations, around 70% of women on “other marital status”(whatever that means) with children under 18do work, but his number goes down to around 50% to married women.

I don‘t view the average stay at home mom as "living off" of anyone, because truthfully, many of them work much harder than those who have an outside job. The only difference is that they don‘t have set hours, and they don‘t get paid for it. Cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, and running after toddlers is hard work and is exhausting. If a man were to pay someone to do all of that for him, he wouldn‘t be able to afford the help. It takes some superior management skills to run a household.

Do you consider cooking, cleaning, laundry shopping and stuff like that as working ? I live alone and I have to do that all for myself, and many times for my brother, and still have to work and go to the university.

And when you‘re talking divorce and the woman getting the house, and the "good car" and "still living at the cost of a husband" let me enlighten you about a few things.

The judge grants the car and the house to the woman, usually, because she has the kids. However, unless the man is forced to pay alimony, she bears the cost of the house payments, the homeowners insurance, the vehicle payments, the vehicle insurance, and the utilities to run the household, as well as any household bills. The rationale given to her is that since she has the house, she gets the bills that go with it. Plumbers, electricians, and home maintenance are expensive unless she can do all of that work herself

If she is going to live in the house, is more than obvious that she would have to pay to mantain it. If she has the car, it‘s obvious she would have to maintain it. That of course will be easier if she receives some “vaginamoney” as Tom Leykis would say. The guy who is going to leave the house will have to pay all that to place he is going to live anyway. You already had said all that, and I already had responded to it.

I am pointing out that "ending up with the house" isn‘t such a great thing. If she has the income to support it, no problem. If she doesn‘t, she won‘t have it for long. If she gets stuck - like I did - with all of the debt from the marriage (which goes above and beyond mortgage payments, property taxes, and utilities), she is operating on 100% of the debt, with only one third of the income. Not such a good deal.

How in blazes geting a house isn‘t such a great thing ? I am talking about a owned house, is what you are talking about ? It still better than not having, and if it‘s yours, you can sell, rent or doing anything you want with it. Now, if you are in debt because of the house in the first place, it‘s not yours anyway, and the obvious thing to do would be selling or renting and moving to the house of your parents or a cheap place.

And if she worked throughout the marriage, there is no alimony. And a court order may order the man to pay "some" of the debts from the marriage, but it often takes contempt of court charges to get them to do so.

That is why I say to my female friends. Only marry a rich dude.

Because most women do work, very few men are required to pay spousal support. And laws vary from state to state.

You know, there is an exact number on that link I gave you on that post that says how many people pays spousal support. True, it‘s a small number compared to the American population, but still, rests the fact that women are the ones who benefit more from that. The data shows that.

84% of men are not paying spousal support.

The 84% statistic is because most of the kids are by and large still being raised by mothers. Child support doesn‘t come close to recouping the costs of actually raising children.

You completely misunderstood what the statistics mean. It does not say, or did I say that 84% of men are paying child support. I advise you to read it more carefully to get a grasp of what it says. I know you probably

Well, let‘s see, what happens.

Would you like a real life scenario?

Husband moves out, moves in with girlfriend, conveniently gets laid off his job, and "works under the table." He petitions to get his child support "lowered" (since it is based on his "income."). His support gets lowered to an amount that doesn‘t cover the cost of gas each month to pick up one of his daughters from sports practice.

This is a truckdriver who clears about $4,000 a month take home (after taxes). He files fraudulent L & I claims. He does everything to beat the system.

He can go up to six months if he wants to - not paying support - based on the fact that he has to be a couple thousand in arrears before they can put him in jail.

In the meantime, the kids‘ needs don‘t stop or go away. So we rob Peter to pay Paul to make ends meet while he lives with his girlfriend, works under the table, and lives the life of Riley.

In order for DCS to collect support, they have to know where he lives, where he works. Pretty tough to collect anything if a guy works under the table. In order to seize a bank account, they have to have the bank and account numbers. If his assets are in someone else‘s name, they can‘t seize his assets. He is smart enough to know this. In order to serve him, they have to have a good address - out of state - to go find him. It takes an aggressive caseworker to unearth these things, and most do not bother.

I had to pay a $1500 retainer fee for an attorney, and invested many hours lost from work to not only recoup child support, but to be reimbursed for his share of the doctor bills, orthodontic bills, eye glasses, and all of the expenses he reneged on in the court orders. It was only when he was a couple days away from going to jail that he finally paid, and even then, it was only a fraction of what was actually spent on those kids.

I was more talking about the other scenario, where the guy goes to jail.

But all of this really happened to you ? In your country there isn‘t a general register or something like that ?

I am not saying that was fair or equitable. But how was it a "mistake?" Did the check get lost in the mail? What happened exactly? I know in the United States, they don‘t "just" put anyone in jail. What you describe does not happen in the majority of cases.

It was a mistake because he already had paid, the money had gone to the account of his ex, but she screwed somehow. But the thing to check is, in the exact same day the complaint was filed, the guy was jailed imediatelly, not even questions were asked, and considering that the guy is famous, rich, is not exactly on the risk of fleeing, this is alarming, to say the least. And because of child support of kids who already live like kings anyway. I never seem a drug dealer dealt with such efficiency. You probably don‘t understand because you are not from here.

The scenario I described above is real common. A lot of women never pursue going after it, because it‘s too much trouble.

Maybe it is common. But the fact remains and it is what the focus was here, is that probably those men never wanted to be parents in the first place. And they/he had less choices to prevent that from happening then you or other women have. And also, if they had money, you would have the right to it.

You aren‘t mentioning how much of that $40 billion is "back support." Nor are you considering what the actual cost of raising all those children was.

I don‘t know exactly what back support is, but the point of showing this data is to show that men are the majority paying spousal support.

Let‘s say a man‘s child support obligation - for 3 kids - is $1000 a month. Sounds like a lot of money, right?

$1000 is less than the average house payment - and even rent payment - nowadays. The average food budget is going to be about one-third of that. There are also haircuts, clothing bills, shoes, school supplies, lunch money for kids, sports fees, sports uniforms, and in many cases, orthodontia, prescriptions, doctor visits, transportation costs, One visit to the ER can pretty well break you up in business. I can tell you that $1000 doesn‘t come close to covering the actual costs.

Well,the child support is supposed to be only a part of what is spent on children. Anyway, is suposed tobe a % of what your spouse earns. If he earns a lot, you are in for the big bucks. If he earns too little, well, too bad for you. Blame the high value rents on the bubbles in the market and the high cost of living on your governants.

If Romario earns big bucks - which he would have to - if he is court ordered to pay 50k every month - that 50k might not be as much of a hardship to him as it would to anyone else. If he lived in the States, and say he had to give up his "superstar" status, his child support obligation would be lowered accordingly.

The point is, if you sleep with the right dude, and get pregnant, you are made for life. 50K a month to take care of 2 children that are yours anyway would be great for you, wouldn‘t it ?

I live in a community property state. Since I worked full-time, there was no alimony. No big deal - I wouldn‘t have asked for it anyway. But what that meant for me was that I had all the same bills, the same expenses, with one third the income. The "good vehicle" you describe was an SUV with high payments and too many miles on it for trade-in, and expensive repairs. It didn‘t take too long for the house and SUV and all the bills left behind to break me up in business. The ex was asked whether he wanted the vehicle he "just had to have" at the time, and he declined.

I simply cannot understand why he declined. I would get the vehicle and sell it. Anyway, why did you 2 buy this “problem vehicle”. It seems that having those kids aren‘t the only bad decisions you guys made.

The point is, I actually know what I am talking about because I have lived it. I have lived life - I don‘t just watch TV and surf the Internet. And I know a lot of working, single mothers, and what their life experiences have been. My life experience is not at all unusual. I know that state agencies would not exist for the sole purpose of collecting child support if all parents paid. I know that legislation wouldn‘t have been passed to seize assets and income tax refunds if this were not a national problem.

There are agencies to deal with all kinds of debt. If it‘s about paying, of course there are people who want to avoid it. But if I buy a car and not to pay it, I will not go to jail. See the difference ?

...How men fare in a divorce all depends on who has the better attorney, who presents the best case, and who has the most money to fight. In a lot of cases, it is the men. So don‘t kid yourself - not all men get screwed....

I did not said that all men get screwed, nor this is the focus on this topic. The main point was what wire was saying. The fact that women have more choices when it comes to those things is the point. In general ,life is different to women than it is to men. And you seem to be presenting a “defense case” in here. I am not saying that those facts are by any chance womens fault or any woman fault or your fault. It‘s simply how things are in the world we live.

I wouldn‘t have had the right to alimony, because I have always worked.

And no I did not have the "luck" of ending up with a "good provider." Truthfully, a lot of men today are not good providers. And that is among the reasons why I think it is really important for women to work and to be able to earn their own living. Relying on men isn‘t always smart.

I would say relyng on men is smart as long as you can pull it of. I mean, those 20 year old with Hugh hefner or the dozens of women having kids with Eddie Murphy certainly can atest to that. They sure would not like to hear this, but it‘s true.

And that is the primary reason I responded to this thread to start with. A lot of women aren‘t expecting men to work overtime - as in the original scenario described - or sending them to an early heart attack - just so that they can have a new couch. I resent the stereotype.

I played the hand I was dealt. I honored my commitments and my responsibilities. I honored my choices - good, bad, wrong, or indifferent. I don‘t see myself as a victim. I am a survivor.

There are a lot of women out there raising children by themselves who are a helluva lot worse off than I was. My attitude comes from living it. My confidence also comes from surviving and overcoming hardships. As I said before - When you‘ve walked a mile in my shoes, you can judge me.

You seem to always forget that the focus is not exactly you. The topic creator was not thinking of your sensitivities when he made out this topic. You say you resent the steretype, but you were not shy in presenting stereotypes of bad behaviour in men in the course of this topic, as if those behaviour would reflect in us men here.

You use terms like “ a lot of women” to describe, what seems to be, women like you, but this “lot of women” aren‘t what the he aiming at, and on the same way, there‘s “ a lot of men” out there too, who woul not do retarded things like lying about vasectomy, or even fleeing to avoid paying child support.

If you say, there I must walk in your shoes to judge you, well, I don‘t want to judge you. I don‘t know you, and all I know about you, is what you said.

Then we had best hope your girlfriend doesn‘t become unexpectedly pregnant, and that life never "happens" to you. Probably best not to be too "smug" because you can‘t always predict your future - or know exactly what you "will" do - until you are faced with the situation. It is easy to say "I will never do this or that" when you haven‘t been through it.

If she becomes pregnant, I am already prepared for it, and so is she. I am more than 20 years old, and I have not been sleeping the whole time. I could even have a couple of kids if I wanted to, and in terms of finances, there would be no problem. I also have my mother, my father, my grandmother who would helps us in many ways. I personally, don‘t like kids, and don‘t want them, for now, and my girlfriend is worried about proper graduation, so this is the worst thing that could happen to her, that is why we are carefull. Anyway, even if unlikely as it is, this happens, I would not avoid anything, neither would she.

Victim Card? I think it‘s you playing the victim card that for the first time in history, men actually have to be accountable for where they put their dick.

No, I am not playing the victim card. I would if I were blaming someone else or an specifc group for my problems. Which is not what I am doing. You said that women would not want to go through abortion or adoption if their men weren‘t unstable. In other words, women doing those things are mens fault. As if they did not know previously how stable orr unstable were those men.

And don‘t get me wrong. If some dude ends up stuck in child support for kids he does not want to, it‘s his fault, and it‘s well deserved. If some broad ends up having abortion or taking care of kids on her own, it‘s her fault and it‘s well deserved.

When it comes to sex, both sexes have equal choices. My point is, and continues to be, that a woman does not get pregnant by herself. I suppose in your eyes, that is all her fault, too.

No, I am not saying it‘s all her fault, I am simply saying that she has choices the man does not have. It‘s not so hard to understand that.

When it comes to consequences, traditionally it has been women left holding the bag. And for the 15 year old girl thinking with her clitoris, what is the male doing? Again, it takes two.

Yeah, again it takes two, but the focus is, only one side has the choices.

You talk about double standards. Here is one that is centuries old - that women are branded "whores" for having sex, but men having sex - with any willing partner at any time - is considered "normal" and just "being a guy."

Women are not branded whores for having sex. They might be branded whores for receiving money for sex. They might be branded sluts if they have sex with many men, but so can men. There are some differences though, but they are not exactly the focus of this discussion, because this discussion is already ginourmously big, and keep adding stuff to it will just make it bigger. Anyway, these days, if women or men want to have sex with multiple partners, they can do so easily being discreet, and probably even anonimously. I know many men and women who have a quite agitated sex life. Funny thing: It‘s not usually them who end up fathering or mothering child early. Usually is the inexperient women and men who ends up caught by "surprise". Promiscuous people are usually very carefull.

If you bring a child into the world, you have a responsibility. That is a pretty foreign concept to a lot of men.

Boo-hoo about being followed around by a court order. Boo-hoo about having to pay child support. Boo-hoo to the poor men who never lose a single night‘s sleep caring for a crying baby that they fathered and abandoned. Child support is nothing compared to the responsibility - or the costs of raising kids.

Again, I must remind you that we are talking about choices. The man, whether he chooses to help raise the child, pay child support, or flee, it‘s simply not his choice. I don‘t know how hard is to get that. If the guy helps to raise a child that he never wanted in the first place, it was still not his choice.

Boo-hoo to the poor women who lose a many night‘s sleep caring for a crying baby that they chose to mother. Boo-hoo to those who have to have to take care of children on their own. There were many ways they could have avoided that in the first place.

If a man never wants to be faced with that possibility, then he, too, needs to take precautions, and to have the discussion about what happens if contraception fails. Because sometimes it does fail.

I am sorry, but how many contraception methods do you know ? Are you saying that you, or most single mothers could not have avoided that, with a little more care ? It‘s simply just lack of responsibility on the part of most people. If anything, those numbers should be near 0.

In the state I live, for example, even though, for some odd reason, single motherhood and teenage pregnancy is on the raise, info on many ways to prevent pregnancy is everywhere. In many cities, all kinds of contraceptive is given for free(even if it wanst, the cost is much less than raising a child). You just need to schedule with a public doctor, who will see you in the same day(a man needs to wait from weeks to months to see a doctor in the public service, but a woman can see a ginecologist in the same day), and give you all you need to prevent pregnancy. Even those next pills they will give you if needed. So how come, in the region of the country where people are better educated, have better income and have better public service those numbers are higher and still

rising ?

Maybe if you are doing anything you can, and by some reason, and against all odds, everything fails, it still should be a lowering number, not a rising one.

And before you jump at me, I am not talking about you, I am talking about the general situation. Statistics don‘t lie. It‘s 2010, it‘s not like sex is a taboo, they talk about in school, at home, it‘s on TV, even if it‘s 8 in the morning, it‘s in the magazines, it‘s everywhere.

The reason for so much trouble is because people are inconsequent with their own lives.

And no, I am not playing a "victim card" about being a single mother, because I don‘t regret it. I love my 3 daughters, would happily walk through fire for all 3 of them, and I am now the proud new grandmother of wonderful baby boy named Jack. I wouldn‘t trade a single moment of my life to be deprived of the joy and happiness I have now, and I consider my 3 kids to be my single greatest achievement. They are amazing people and they were worth every single thing I ever went through and more. "My choice" was to give birth to my children - planned or not - to raise them to adulthood - and to be responsible.

When I said that you were playing the victim card, I was being specific to your comment about abortion and adoption. If those women were with unstable men to begin with, all the more reason to be more carefull, right ? And those choices mentioned, they are not limited to a certain kind of women or to women who date certain kind of men. They are not limited or conditioned to women who behave in a certain way. They are given because they are women. If a women gets pregnant with the best or richest man in the world, they still would have the choice to abort or adopt, if they fell like it. If a girl is graduating and are busy writing a thesis or something, like my girlfriend, and ends up pregnant, certainly, things would be bad, right ? Understand where this is going ?

And yeah - I dated their loser dad. I made mistakes. I trusted the wrong person. So what? He was a garden variety loser, just like a lot of guys. I was not the first - or the only - to be wrong about him. Had it not been for the Division of Child Support, I am sure he would never have paid a dime. I am sure he would love to say that he didn‘t have a "choice."

He ever said to you, “I want to have a child with you” or something ? Did you ever asked him if he wanted ? It seems, by the way you describe him, the answer would be no.

Life was what happened when I was busy making other plans, and for me, it turned out to be a total blessing.

Because women are the ones to get pregnant, to endure pregnancy and childbirth, and care for the child, they have the right to choose. They don‘t get out of the consequences whatever way they go - abortion, adoption, or keeping the baby.

So, are you comparing abortion, adoption, or, for gods sake, using some of the many methods for contraception existents, with raising a child ? That is like a man comparing having a vasectomy with rising a child.

TALUTAH:

We know in the 1830‘s that was true. Two sisters, Sarah and Angelina Grimke wrote about the injustices suffered by women.

That is kinda weird. That means that in the USA constitution in 1830, there was no isonomy

granted to all citizens ?

Ok...here goes....To Wire and African Guy....

I couldn‘t even read all three pages of this drivel because at some point I just got disgusted and quit. I see that there has been some domestic violence in Wire‘s life...but African Guy?? In my opinion you are BOTH immature ASSHOLE‘S!! Grow up!! And what I don‘t understand is all the women on this site that are either a single mother NOW, or have been a single mother in the PAST leaving Rhiannon fighting this battle with these two jerks all on her own!! I find it very humerous that everybody here always has SOMETHING to say about trivial SHIT, but yet they see these two wimps trying to beat her ASS into the ground and NO ONE has one word to say in her defense?? WTF!!

First off...I read that one of you feel that a man has NO contraception avenues....are you kidding me?? What the FUCK is a rubber then?? You mean you can‘t or have no idea how to put one on YOUR DICK?? And yes...it is YOUR DICK...not the woman‘s. I know they are not 100% effective...but at least it is a very good start. YOU FUCK....YOU BE PREPARED TO PAY!! End of story!! Don‘t even try to go there with me about FUCKING and child support issues either. I have 3 children from 2 different men...and guess what....neither of those ASSHOLES paid SHIT!! Both of them are dead now, and have left me to take care of it all!! And neither of them had to be dead now either....one hung himself when my kid was 6, and the other one drank himself to death. Both of these deaths could have been avoided, but it was choices that THEY MADE with NO care or concern for me nor my children!! But guess what...I made it just fine!! And I did this because THEY left ME no choice in the matter....

I have also grown up in an abusive household...BIG FUCKING DEAL!! I don‘t choose to dwell on that, or let it define my life now. I also have been in abusive marriages...I also do not choose to dwell on that nor let it define my life today!!  So just what the FUCK do you think you are trying to prove to the most wonderful, kind, loving person on this site?? And Rhiannon is exactly that!!

How about you KISS MY FUCKING ASS?? Go back and read what your" little" minds/dicks have actually made you type here....grow a set of BALLS....make her an apology...and crawl back to wherever you came from. With the drivel that is spewing out of your mouth on a website that should comfort abused women....you should be ashamed of yourselves!!

YOU GO RHI...I GOT YOUR BACK SINCE NO ONE ELSE DOES!!

Well Drew let‘s see....the first man I married at 16. You see I lived in a very dysfunctional home and "thought" that was my magical answer out. I became pregnant and was basically a baby raising a baby. I had NO business being married or a mother. I was too young to SEE if he had any bad qualities....and when it became apparent...I left!! I raised my son on my own until he was 6. Then the ASSHOLE contacted me with this song and dance that "he had changed"....I wanted to see the good in him and allow my son to know his father. Well that lasted approx. 6 months until he walked into the basement and hung himself!! After that...I picked up the pieces and moved on....because what choice did HE leave ME??

As far as the next....that one was totally my mistake and I will OWN it. I knew some of what he was, but I was also an immature 19 year old. I will make NO excuses for obviously picking the "wrong guy"....but he picked me as well!! WE chose to have 2 kids together...there was NO TRAPPING on my part. So when the relationship ended...you bet your ASS I expected him to pay up for their needs. Well apparently he felt otherwise....and guess what?? I didn‘t give a rat‘s ass about that either. I EXPECTED money for their support, but I NEVER chased him for it. I wasn‘t begging any ASSHOLE for SHIT!! So once again, I took care of it on my own!! Then years later surprise surprise....he was all FUCKED up on drugs and called me to say "he needed my help"....HA!! I should have told him to KISS MY FUCKING ASS....but I didn‘t. I decided to be the bigger better person and help him "get help". I went far beyond the call of duty and in the end he still FUCKED it up!! Now, he‘s dead too and I am the only parent any of my kids have left. Instead of whining and being angry about it, I chose to turn a negative into a positive and look at ALL that I have. A son that has given me 5 beautiful granchildren...another son, that loves me to death and always wants to protect me no matter what the cost, and a daughter that will walk for her teacher‘s diploma in May and teach hadicapped kids and enrich their lives. She will also get married this October 2010 and be a beautiful bride!!

I will be the one to get to experience all these wonderful things...they CHOSE to miss out....

So what the FUCK else do you have to say to me you little PISSANT?? Bring it on cause you ain‘t gonna win with me!!

My God, it‘s been a long time since I‘ve seen such vicious text.  I have to say, that attitude ranks down there among the people who think castration is funny.  Normally I don‘t get involved in stuff like this but since this is my thread, I feel I have no choice.  That said, you really need to chill out.

Rhiannon is outnumbered.  I agree, it‘s unfair in discussion/argument/debate/whatever you want to call it.  But when you barge in like this, seemingly ready to stab someone, it really makes me want to not take you seriously.  Generally speaking, if what you‘re saying has integrity, I will agree with you.

I‘m well aware of men‘s choices on birth control.  There aren‘t as many as there are with women but there is a decent selection.  I personally use condoms, and sometimes my S/O and I will take advantage of the infertile portion of her cycle as well as a specialized diet of mine that can lower sperm count.  My profession is in holistic medicine.  I don‘t even like the pill.

Read this.  The reason I called this thread "Experiment" is because a few days before, a thread was started that was but a joke that was completely at a man‘s expense.  In a test for double-standards, I posted an article that is clearly intended to be a joke at women‘s expense.  I wanted to gauge responses to see just how honest a good person can be about his side of the story (jokes and all) without being attacked by a selfish feminist ideology.

Rhiannon, we‘ve butted heads a few times but I have enjoyed the talk, and in a productive way, not an antagonistic one.  Thank you for keeping your head.  It‘s a very respectable quality.  But now that the thread is starting to take a hostile turn, I think it‘s time to explain why I started this thread in the first place.

Evesdrop, the men who are here are ultimately here for one purpose only: universal karmic balance.  The Universe has placed our minds in this community to balance out what could potentially turn into a network of extremely unbalanced opinion, closely resembling and possibly transcending radical feminism.  Now, please try to understand where I‘m coming from on this.  No matter how hurt or damaged or upset the women here might be, you can‘t logically deny that to wallow in those negative feelings will cause those said feelings to fester and grow.  If there no men on here to provide an alternate viewpoint once in a while, the predominantly feminine viewpoint will encourage a suffering woman to feel little aside from self-pity, anger and vengeance.  

That attitude isn‘t good for any of us, women or men.  We need you, and you need us, whether or not you want to admit it.  So if you‘re really going to turn a mere heated discussion into an actual fight, you‘re part of the problem.  And I‘m not just talking about Eves, by the way.  Anybody here who feels the need to take cheap potshots toward say, a dried-up vagina or small penis is part of the problem. 

We‘re both (man and woman) damaged, like chips and cracks in a yin/yang pendant.  I stay here to contribute a sometimes provocative yet productive perspective on the whole Battle of the Sexes/Gender War, which is ultimately what this is all about.

If we never end up coming to a common ground, at least let‘s be civil. 

(I invite anyone to browse my posting history and look for a place where *I* made a cheap shot toward someone in order to win an argument)

Wire...

I completely agree with you that no matter what anyone says...at some point in time men and women do need each other....for whatever purpose that may be. What PISSED me off was coming down here just to browse and see these two little "PUNKS" trying their level best to beat down and make an asshole out of a women that I KNOW to be a lovely, kind, decent lady!! When they started in on that CRAP about it being the women‘s JOB to raise a kid if she gets pregnant...I WENT BALLISTIC!! They kept trying to shove their juvenile opinions down Rhi‘s throat and it made me sick!! BTW...I use the caps mostly when I‘m cussing because if you don‘t it won‘t read it....and I like to cuss...so shoot me. Anyway...I am NOT a manhater. I am married once again and have been for almost 16 years now. Princey has been through alot of the SHIT I posted above with me. He has valiantly stood by me through thick and thin....I was just giving my 2 cents to the two little know it all BASTARDS when Drew showed up and insulted me. What I think you misunderstand is that I am not fighting....I am simply very opinionated and vocal about my beliefs. I have been through hell and back and am a survivor. I don‘t HAVE to share any of my past here I CHOOSE to do it in the hopes it helps another....be it a woman or a man makes NO difference to me. And although you did not actually use the words "I‘m sorry"...to Rhi...it was nice to see you write that it did appear she was being ganged up on what was supposed to be a discussion/debate...whatever.

I totally see where you‘re coming from and admire the fact you‘ve been holding your own despite the circumstances you grew up and through life in.  But there is no apology because I am not saying it‘s the "woman‘s job to raise a kid if she gets pregnant".

And it‘s not a pseudo-apology where I admitted she was outnumbered.  I was hoping more people than her would contribute to the thread, but since few did until this point, of course it looks like she‘s being ganged up on.  How could it look any other way? 

I‘m saying that men should have the same rights women have, precisely because I am a person who believes in equality. 

But I don‘t date any woman who would, should we accidentally get pregnant, completely disregard my feelings and opinions on whether or not to keep the baby.  I don‘t date women who are that unethical.  I also encourage my female friends to not date unethical men, men who would exercise that said right, a paper abortion.

If any of you knew me personally, I‘m reasonably certain you wouldn‘t have such a negative opinion about me.  Most of my friends are women.  My S/O sees me as pretty ethical and integral, especially compared to people she‘s dated in the past.

I don‘t have negative opinions of anyone here, precisely because I know they have their life story to justify why they feel the way they do.  So do I.

Wire...I have no reason to dislike you...I can however dislike your comments/opinions. Thank you for the kudos to me for the way I have handled my life....I have always just rolled with the punches in situations whether I created them myself or they were thrust upon me. As far as the ganging up on Rhi...yes, I guess when you put it in that light you are correct. She was the ONLY one down here giving you and African Guy a woman‘s point of view. That surprises me because as I said before...there are many other women on this site that are either a single mother now or have been a single mother in the past such as myself. I have been away from this site for awhile and when I am here I generally don‘t stray away from General....I just felt like surfing the other forums the other day and I almost SHIT my pants when I saw this thread.....I felt that Rhi was being genuine and honest and fighting the good fight and everyone had left her all alone with "her dick in her hand"...so to speak. I thought it was apalling to say the least. Now as far as your comment about pregnancies...that is a tough one. Since I have never trapped a guy into one....I can honestly say I don‘t know what I would do if I "accidently" became pregnant and the guy did not want it. I do know that I would NOT have an abortion (I know too many that have and have regretted it), I may entertain giving it to a lovely family (that would be a big maybe), I would most likely keep it.....hmmmm.....to be honest..I think if I chose to keep it and the guy didn‘t want it...I would probably have him sign away his parental rights and just raise the baby and go on with my life. If he didn‘t want to sign away those rights then I would EXPECT him to support it. He probably wouldn‘t though...so I would take care of it myself like I always do.

Hope this has cleared up some of the bad feelings....Rhi is the bomb and I respect her and her ethics immensely....She apparently has very strong feelings on this subject and she is completely entitled to them....

Eves