WomanSavers.com Forum / MEN'S AREA / Experiment

I don‘t expect "preferential" treatment and never did.  Most of the women I know don‘t expect it either.  And as far as women talking as though things are the same as they were 300 years ago, I am really not hearing that.

This is not entirely about women wanting privilegies. The problem is that our western culture sees women. Those who are trying to pass quotas for women on my country are not women. This is an cultural aspect that is everywhere.

Nobody wants, for example, mandatory military service for women here.

The flip side to women "having it all" is "doing it all."  Trust me - there is nothing preferential in any of that.  Working all day at a full-time job, and coming home to pick up a house, do laundry, cook, clean, help kids with homework, and take them to sports practice is like having two full-time jobs, and you are never caught up. 

But that is not every woman life. How about those who put the child in the daycare, have the made, while they go to the gim. And then years later, divorce, take the house, the good car, and still living at the cost of a husband. You are always talking about how hard it is this and that, but you forget that is not the reality for everyone.

And if you‘re a single parent, everything is your responsibility.  I am not whining about this - it is the way life is.  But it‘s not easy, and now women are catching up with men in the heart attack & stroke department.  You have to be a master juggler and good at multi-tasking, and there is nothing "glamorous" about it.

But remember what wire said. If you are a single parent, is, in general your choice. You could have chosen to use contraception. You could have chosen to do abortion. You could have chosen to adopt. A man does not have any of those choices, and taht is the point wire was trying to bring it up.

African Guy - What an insulting thing to say.  I could have used birth control?  Yeah - I suppose I could have. 

I didn‘t "choose" to be a single parent.  I "chose" to be a married one.  My "choice" eventually became whether to continue to be married to an abusive, crazy man, or to make the other "choice" which was to leave him.  I tried to avoid that "choice" for quite a while, until it reached crisis proportions, and it became too dangerous to stay.

I suppose you could also say it was my "choice" to marry him, and to date him, and you would be right about that.  But who I thought I was marrying after six months of living together was completely different than the man he turned out to be.  Read about domestic violence on this site, and you might learn a few things.  He was a pretty good actor and a pretty smooth manipulator.

What man lies about having a vasectomy?  It taught me that you really can‘t trust anyone when it comes to being safe.

I can‘t say that I entirely regret all my choices, because if I hadn‘t married the creep, I would most certainly not have the three beautiful daughters I have today.  They are wonderful girls, and they were worth everything I went through.

I didn‘t "plan" to be a single parent.  I rose to the challenge.

And my point - African Guy - when you say that men have no choices - is that they have every choice when and where they choose to have sex.  And they have every choice whether to use a condom or not.  Contraception should be a two way street.  I‘ve only been with one man who ever believed that contraception was his responsibility.  And men can also adopt children.  And hire surrogate mothers to have children for them.  They can also be foster parents.  And fathers do have legal rights if they choose to exercise them.

They, too, have options.  They, too, should bear some of the responsibility.  Women don‘t get pregnant by themselves.

And you‘re right that being a single parent isn‘t "every woman‘s life" but it is the life of a good majority of women in America, and many of your marriages are second marriages with blended families.  Most women - who have lived any length of time - have been single mothers at some point.  Not all are like me - choosing to remain single.  But enough of them are that my life is not at all unusual.  I would say about 2/3 of the women I have worked with have been single moms.  Query most of the women on this website and you will find that quite a lot of them are working, single mothers - or have been - at some point in their lives. 

Putting a child in daycare to go to the gym...  What is your point about that?  What would a single father do?  Probably ask his mother, or find someone next door to watch his kids so that he can go to the gym.  Would you be upset with him for doing that?

I didn‘t go to the gym - and even when I was married, I loaded the kids in the car and took them everywhere with me - including to the barn to do horses.  I distinctly remember one farrier appointment where I parked the kids on one side of the barn, while the farrier was trimming the horses - having the older children rocking the car seat while I held a yearling filly whose hooves were being trimmed.  My ex-husband whined about helping with the kids, and quite truthfully, I wasn‘t comfortable leaving them with him very often.

And when you‘re talking divorce and the woman getting the house, and the "good car" and "still living at the cost of a husband" let me enlighten you about a few things.

The judge grants the car and the house to the woman, usually, because she has the kids.  However, unless the man is forced to pay alimony, she bears the cost of the house payments, the homeowners insurance, the vehicle payments, the vehicle insurance, and the utilities to run the household, as well as any household bills.  The rationale given to her is that since she has the house, she gets the bills that go with it.  Plumbers, electricians, and home maintenance are expensive unless she can do all of that work herself.  And her attorney will advise her that if she can‘t afford it, she should probably sell it.  And if she can‘t afford it, the judge will usually order the house to be sold.

The above scenario is more common these days - the result of women working.  Not so many men are paying alimony these days.  For that matter, child support is cut in half - it‘s proportioned based on income - her salary as well as his.  So the child support obligation is not solely based on the man.  And an awful lot of men don‘t pay child support, even when they are court-ordered to, and it is the law.

Child support is a drop in the bucket compared to the actual cost of raising children.  It is usually cheaper to pay support than it is to raise kids. And there are a lot of dads who refuse to pay it at all, which is why DCS was invented. 

More common all the time is joint custody.

I live in a community property state.  Since I worked full-time, there was no alimony.  No big deal - I wouldn‘t have asked for it anyway.  But what that meant for me was that I had all the same bills, the same expenses, with one third the income.  The "good vehicle" you describe was an SUV with high payments and too many miles on it for trade-in, and expensive repairs.  It didn‘t take too long for the house and SUV and all the bills left behind to break me up in business. The ex was asked whether he wanted the vehicle he "just had to have" at the time, and he declined. 

Truthfully, I would have been better off to walk away with nothing, because I could have rented a 3 bedroom apartment in town which would have cut my costs about 35% and my commute to work about 50%.  I would have been better off to file bankruptcy from the get go instead of trying to pay all of those bills.  That is what my ex did, and financially, it would have been far easier.

When you‘ve walked a mile in my shoes, you can judge me.

Well, since I don‘t live in Brazil, and have never studied Brazil, I think I would be ill qualified to comment on conditions and society in Brazil.

My comments are based on American society, American laws, and American history.  Maybe you should research it, so that when you choose to bash Americans and/or American women, you actually know what you‘re talking about. 

No - I am not saying that women‘ periods, or women‘s medical conditions are something to "blame" men for.  I am just illustrating that life isn‘t - and won‘t ever be - "fair."  And none of that has anything to do with men‘s rights to get a job, or run for public office. 

Women have had more "reproductive" legal rights because they are the ones to bear the children.  They are also the ones to bear most of the responsibility.

Have you ever been faced with the choice whether to keep a baby, or have an abortion?  I find it interesting how men think that choice is "easy."  And adoption - how many men have actually had to be there to witness what it is like to give away a baby?  What is so wonderful about having those choices?

And did you know - that you, as a father, can sign papers to give up your parental rights if you don‘t want them?  And if a woman claims you‘re the father, and you want proof, you can order a DNA test.  And if you are the biological father, why wouldn‘t you want to provide for that child?  I mean, if a woman gets pregnant, we consider it her fault because she had sex.  She didn‘t do it by herself, right?  Saying you‘re the dad in the situation - you made a choice, too. You share equal responsibility.

It was my "tongue in cheek" illustration that when men complain about reproductive rights, there is a flip side to it. And no, I am not a "victim" or advocating anyone being a victim.  I take full responsibility for my choices - good or bad - and have lived to pay the consequences of most of them. 

The argument here seems to be about how women supposedly have it so much better than men - and the fact is, they don‘t.  What I am doing is presenting the reality of being on the "other side."

When you say talking about women problems is politically correct, while talking about men problems is not, why isn‘t it?  Who is making the rules about that?  Probably men - who are afraid of being ridiculed by other men.  But if the argument is that women get more public recognition for breast cancer than men get for prostate cancer, the reason for it is because women have lobbied, raised public awareness, and come to the forefront.  Men can do the same.  If they want to raise money for research to stop this deadly disease, they can make it happen.  If it isn‘t "politically correct" they can make it "politically correct."

The gay movement in San Francisco in the 70‘s was a real good example of what happens when people (men) organize politically.

I don‘t have a problem with it if men decide to do that.  I am all for preventing disease and death wherever possible, and I think there needs to be a lot more public awareness.  So where are you men in all of this?  What are you doing about this exactly?  And how is this the fault of women?

And yes, you do have control  about when and where you become a father, just as women do.  You take a risk any time you have sex.  That applies to both men and women.  Carrying condoms - and spermicide - should probably be everyone‘s modus operandi because no one should really leave that choice up to anyone else.  Until the AIDS scare, it was rare to meet a man who wore condoms.  No one should rely on anyone else for their personal safety. 

I haven‘t posted any men on "Rate A Guy" and never will.  I didn‘t need to.  Court records contain plenty of public information.  I didn‘t commit any "slander."  The police pretty much handled the reporting themselves.

95% of divorced men with children may be court ordered to pay child support, but there are a lot of statistics to support how many of those court ordered men bail out of it, or disappear.  That is why DCS was created.  It is why they came up with laws to go after income tax refunds, and to seize assets - because dads weren‘t paying.  That problem is far from being a thing of the past.  There are a lot of women on this site who didn‘t collect a dime of support, and raised their children entirely by themselves.

And actually, men can petition for custody, and if children of a certain age choose to live with the other parent (say the dad), a guardian ad litem can be appointed, and in many cases, the court will go with whatever the guardian ad litem recommends.  A lot of teenagers prefer to live with Dad, and it‘s happening more and more.  If Dad is home with the kids more than Mom is, that will be taken into consideration as well.  I think we‘re going to see a lot more changes in the future when it comes to child custody.

There are good men and there are bad men.  There are good women and there are bad women.  Men sometimes get screwed, but a lot of women get screwed, too.

Now while you are bashing women - on a website for women who have been cheated on and abused - what is your point in being here exactly?  If you can‘t relate to women on this site, why be here?  Of course we‘re going to discuss women‘s issues, because it‘s a women‘s site.  There are a lot of websites out there.  Why hang out here when you can woman bash in so many other places?

African Guy - What an insulting thing to say.  I could have used birth control? 

Well, I don‘t think it is an insulting thing to say. If I could take a pill to prevent any chances of me being  stuck in child support for 20 years, I would certainly do that. But I can‘t.(When is that man pills coming anyway ?)

What man lies about having a vasectomy?  It taught me that you really can‘t trust anyone when it comes to being safe.

Well, this guy is very retarded, I must say, I really don‘t see what is good about lying about a vasectomy, when it‘s obvious for anyone with half brain, thta this will result in pregnancy.

I can‘t say that I entirely regret all my choices, because if I hadn‘t married the creep, I would most certainly not have the three beautiful daughters I have today.  They are wonderful girls, and they were worth everything I went through.

You could have married not the creep, but a guy who isn‘t. My mother has many children and she isn‘t married to a creep.

I didn‘t "plan" to be a single parent.  I rose to the challenge.

I think in your case would be more adequate to say you are a divorced parent, not a single one. My understanding of single parent is someone who became a parent alone.

And my point - African Guy - when you say that men have no choices - is that they have every choice when and where they choose to have sex.

Read my above post. The fact remains, men have less choices.

  And they have every choice whether to use a condom or not.  Contraception should be a two way street.

Most of my friends who are my age and taking care of children WERE using condons. It‘s not even close to a 100% safety. You must be using condon(for this and others reasons) and smoething else.

My girlfriend uses the pill, but when she is not, we rely on other stuff too, not just condon. As a man, the only thing I can do for is use a condon, but it‘s not enough.

  I‘ve only been with one man who ever believed that contraception was his responsibility.  And men can also adopt children.  And hire surrogate mothers to have children for them.  They can also be foster parents.  And fathers do have legal rights if they choose to exercise them.

When i talked about adoption, I was talking about a woman who doesn‘t want to become mother giving them for adoption. Since in my country abortion is illegal, this is somewhat a common practice

They, too, have options.  They, too, should bear some of the responsibility.  Women don‘t get pregnant by themselves.

I do agree that men have some responsibilities, but the point is, in the end the choice is on the woman.

And you‘re right that being a single parent isn‘t "every woman‘s life" but it is the life of a good majority of women in America, and many of your marriages are second marriages with blended families. 

I don‘t think you can say it is a majority. As far as I know, 43% of first marriages in the USA end in divorce. That is not majority.

Most women - who have lived any length of time - have been single mothers at some point.  Not all are like me - choosing to remain single.  But enough of them are that my life is not at all unusual.  I would say about 2/3 of the women I have worked with have been single moms.  Query most of the women on this website and you will find that quite a lot of them are working, single mothers - or have been - at some point in their lives. 

And are you saying that all of them could not have avoided that situation ? I‘d say many of them could have. I have seen single motherhood aruond me, and many of them, it doesn‘t even surprises me that they ended in such situation.

And before you say I have a prejudice against women, isn‘t that at all. I can say the same about many guys I know too.

Putting a child in daycare to go to the gym...  What is your point about that?  What would a single father do?  Probably ask his mother, or find someone next door to watch his kids so that he can go to the gym.  Would you be upset with him for doing that?

 I am talking about married women, who doesn‘t work, lives off entirely of their husband, and yet leave their children with with nannies and such while they spend the day in the gim. It‘s not like they have a hard life, isn‘t it ? From 6 of my neighbours, 5 of them, the wife doesn‘t work at all.

The judge grants the car and the house to the woman, usually, because she has the kids.  However, unless the man is forced to pay alimony, she bears the cost of the house payments, the homeowners insurance, the vehicle payments, the vehicle insurance, and the utilities to run the household, as well as any household bills. The rationale given to her is that since she has the house, she gets the bills that go with it.  Plumbers, electricians, and home maintenance are expensive unless she can do all of that work herself

To be given alimony is almost granted if the woman doesnt work. Of course those bills will be granted to HER in those cases where there aren‘t alimony. Because if the man had to pay that, it would be alimony!! Now it‘s her house, her bills to pay.

  .  And her attorney will advise her that if she can‘t afford it, she should probably sell it.  And if she can‘t afford it, the judge will usually order the house to be sold.

in all that, everything sounds exactly fair.

The above scenario is more common these days - the result of women working.  Not so many men are paying alimony these days. 

According to this statistic, 84% of the child/spouse support is paid by men.

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

Of course, we dno‘t need statistics to say us that. We can just go outside and talk to people.

For that matter, child support is cut in half - it‘s proportioned based on income - her salary as well as his.  So the child support obligation is not solely based on the man.  And an awful lot of men don‘t pay child support, even when they are court-ordered to, and it is the law.

And what happens when they don‘t pay ?

not so long ago, Romario, the famous soccer palyer from my country, was put in JAIL because he did not paid child support, and even though it was a just a mistake, he stayed for one entire day in prison.

 As for custody, it appears that in America, is almst half to half:

"As of 2003, 43.7% of custodial mothers and 56.2% of custodial fathers were either separated or divorced. And in 2002, 7.8 million Americans paid about $40 billion in child and/or spousal support (84% of the payers were male)."

hild support is a drop in the bucket compared to the actual cost of raising children.  It is usually cheaper to pay support than it is to raise kids. And there are a lot of dads who refuse to pay it at all, which is why DCS was invented. 

Since it dpeends on how much you earn, well, I can say that this is not the case. If the guy earns a lot of money, he will have to pay more. in the case of Romario,  that I mentioned ealier, he pays around what wuold be 50k dollars every month to his ex.

I live in a community property state.  Since I worked full-time, there was no alimony.  No big deal - I wouldn‘t have asked for it anyway.  But what that meant for me was that I had all the same bills, the same expenses, with one third the income.  The "good vehicle" you describe was an SUV with high payments and too many miles on it for trade-in, and expensive repairs.  It didn‘t take too long for the house and SUV and all the bills left behind to break me up in business. The ex was asked whether he wanted the vehicle he "just had to have" at the time, and he declined. 

Well, you constantly talk about your bad experiences. But that is the norm, or the majority. How much in % of divorced women in América receives alimony ? How many get houses, and such. Because, those who constantly complaining about losing half of their stuff in divorces are American men. I am not inventing things. I found that around 450k people on America recently are receiving alimony, and I guess the majority is women.

http://divorce.lovetoknow.com/Alimony_Figures

The fact that you did not have the luck of having a good provider as husband doesn‘t mean you would not have this right if he was, understand, and that is the case of many out there. If my father and my mother ever get divorce she surely would get the house.

When you‘ve walked a mile in my shoes, you can judge me.

I do everything in my life so I never have the possibility of walking in "your shoes". My father says "the safe dies from old age"

My comments are based on American society, American laws, and American history.  Maybe you should research it, so that when you choose to bash Americans and/or American women, you actually know what you‘re talking about.

In general, are American saying those things. Not me. Like I said, I did not invented all that stuff. One thing is obiovus for me though. In the USA, laws and stuff are way more favorable for women than for men, and I thik that is the main reason American men are in general less manly then men in latin America, and also why there are way more divorces. And that is why also Americans are also talking about geting wife from others cultures, in special Asian, instead of marrying within their own culture.

The ability to provide of an American man who lives in the greatest economy in the world is of course greater than one in latin América, so logic would dictate that it should be the opposite, here there should be more divorces and problems with child support and such.

- I am not saying that women‘ periods, or women‘s medical conditions are something to "blame" men for.  I am just illustrating that life isn‘t - and won‘t ever be - "fair."  And none of that has anything to do with men‘s rights to get a job, or run for public office. 

Then what is reason for quotas for women in politics or such ?

Women have had more "reproductive" legal rights because they are the ones to bear the children.  They are also the ones to bear most of the responsibility.

But who would have to pay 20 years of child support, even though he does not even WANT TO become a parent in the first place ? That is what Wire is talking about.

Have you ever been faced with the choice whether to keep a baby, or have an abortion?  I find it interesting how men think that choice is "easy."  And adoption - how many men have actually had to be there to witness what it is like to give away a baby?  What is so wonderful about having those choices?

Are you freaking kiding  me ? It is women who want those choices. Are you saying you don‘t want these choices ? Are you saying that women in general don‘t want those choices ?

And did you know - that you, as a father, can sign papers to give up your parental rights if you don‘t want them?

no, you cannot. If a woman sues you for child support, you HAVE to pay, even though it might not even be proved that the child is your. You can give up your rights, but not your duties.

And if a woman claims you‘re the father, and you want proof, you can order a DNA test.

No, in many cases you cannot. In fact, sometimes the judge will deny the suposed father request for DNA test, because of the "effect on the kids", or will ignore the result of a already preexintent test. THERE ARE TOPICS HERE IN THIS FORUM SHOWING THIS, I can provide more if you want to.

  And if you are the biological father, why wouldn‘t you want to provide for that child?

  If you are a pregnant woman, who is going to be a mother, why would you consider having an abortion, or giving up for adoption ? You are being so one sided that is quite surprising, considering how reasonable you were so far. The thing is, as a woman you have all the choices when it comes down to it, while what men have are court decisions to obey. Remember that.

mean, if a woman gets pregnant, we consider it her fault because she had sex.  She didn‘t do it by herself, right?  Saying you‘re the dad in the situation - you made a choice, too. You share equal responsibility.

BUT NOT THE CHOICE! You share the responsibility, but not the choice.

We both have an enourmous discussion, but in the end it all came back to everything WIRE already said right before your post.

African Guy - What an insulting thing to say.  I could have used birth control? 

"Well, I don‘t think it is an insulting thing to say. If I could take a pill to prevent any chances of me being  stuck in child support for 20 years, I would certainly do that. But I can‘t.(When is that man pills coming anyway ?)"

Hey, I would happily give the average man the entire experience of pregnancy, labor, childbirth, and breast feeding.  And a birth control pill for men would be a fabulou idea.  As Gloria Steinem once said, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. 

"The same argument works for both sides. Many men also get stuck with women that aren‘t "what they thought to be". I don‘t think this argument is valid exactly because of that. You said a little earlier that MEN do choose who they have sex with and when, the same is valid for every woman out there. But men do have less choices when it comes to becoming a parent AGAINST his own will. That is the point that Wire was talking about. You cannot play the victim card on this case, because the same argument works both ways, and men in the ultimate case, does not have the choices women have."

I am not playing the "victim" card.  I am presenting reality.  Reality is that a lot of men think with their dick, and expect to get off scot free when it comes to consequences.  And they did - for quite a few years!  And even with the changes in the laws, many are still evading responsibility. 

What man lies about having a vasectomy?  It taught me that you really can‘t trust anyone when it comes to being safe.

"Well, this guy is very retarded, I must say, I really don‘t see what is good about lying about a vasectomy, when it‘s obvious for anyone with half brain, thta this will result in pregnancy."

I definitely agree with you on this one.

I can‘t say that I entirely regret all my choices, because if I hadn‘t married the creep, I would most certainly not have the three beautiful daughters I have today.  They are wonderful girls, and they were worth everything I went through.

"You could have married not the creep, but a guy who isn‘t. My mother has many children and she isn‘t married to a creep."

No - she probably was married to a good man to begin with - before she had children.  Makes all the difference in the world. 

I made the choices I made based on the information I had at the time. I sure as hell wasn‘t planning on becoming a wife - or a mother - when the "vasectomy" turned out to be false.  There is a saying that life is what happens when you are busy making other plans.

I didn‘t "plan" to be a single parent.  I rose to the challenge.

"I think in your case would be more adequate to say you are a divorced parent, not a single one. My understanding of single parent is someone who became a parent alone."

"Single parent" means raising children without a partner.  Divorced, never married, what‘s the difference? 

And my point - African Guy - when you say that men have no choices - is that they have every choice when and where they choose to have sex.

"Read my above post. The fact remains, men have less choices."

Men also rarely use contraception - they rely on women to do it.  They also don‘t get pregnant, don‘t carry the child to term, and often aren‘t the ones to bear the responsibility of raising a child.  They never have to experience abortion, and they don‘t live with the aftermath of what goes with it.  Many of them don‘t plan on sticking around much after conception.  Many of them think only with their dick.

My feeling is that no one should trust anyone else when it comes to preventing pregnancy.

And they have every choice whether to use a condom or not.  Contraception should be a two way street.

"Most of my friends who are my age and taking care of children WERE using condons. It‘s not even close to a 100% safety. You must be using condon(for this and others reasons) and smoething else.

My girlfriend uses the pill, but when she is not, we rely on other stuff too, not just condon. As a man, the only thing I can do for is use a condon, but it‘s not enough."

Good for you for realizing this.  Have the two of you talked about what happens if contraception fails?  What is your role if that happens?

 I‘ve only been with one man who ever believed that contraception was his responsibility.  And men can also adopt children.  And hire surrogate mothers to have children for them.  They can also be foster parents.  And fathers do have legal rights if they choose to exercise them.

"When i talked about adoption, I was talking about a woman who doesn‘t want to become mother giving them for adoption. Since in my country abortion is illegal, this is somewhat a common practice."

I know people who have had to give up children for adoption, and that choice was excruciating - for many years afterward.  I think all of them would have made quite different choices if the fathers of those babies had been willing to stick by them.  What was the man‘s "choice" then?  Oh I remember - it was to get the hell out of dodge.

They, too, have options.  They, too, should bear some of the responsibility.  Women don‘t get pregnant by themselves.

I do agree that men have some responsibilities, but the point is, in the end the choice is on the woman.

The choice is on the woman because she bears 100% of the consequences, either way.

And you‘re right that being a single parent isn‘t "every woman‘s life" but it is the life of a good majority of women in America, and many of your marriages are second marriages with blended families. 

"I don‘t think you can say it is a majority. As far as I know, 43% of first marriages in the USA end in divorce. That is not majority."

Wrong statistics.  One in two marriages ends in divorce in America, which makes it more than 43%.  Second marriages, statistically, end just as frequently as first marriages.

Most women - who have lived any length of time - have been single mothers at some point.  Not all are like me - choosing to remain single.  But enough of them are that my life is not at all unusual.  I would say about 2/3 of the women I have worked with have been single moms.  Query most of the women on this website and you will find that quite a lot of them are working, single mothers - or have been - at some point in their lives. 

"And are you saying that all of them could not have avoided that situation ? I‘d say many of them could have. I have seen single motherhood aruond me, and many of them, it doesn‘t even surprises me that they ended in such situation."

Well, sure, all of us could have avoided the situation.  Hmmm...it all could have been avoided from simply not having sex in the first place.  Abstinence still remains the most effective means of birth control (tongue in cheek). 

The point is, there are  A LOT of us out there.  I don‘t appreciate your derogatory remarks about single mothers, or your obvious prejudice about "how they ended up in such situations."

Not all of us are "loose" women who sleep around.  And for every woman who ends up in that situation, where are the fathers?

"And before you say I have a prejudice against women, isn‘t that at all. I can say the same about many guys I know too."

Really?   

Putting a child in daycare to go to the gym...  What is your point about that?  What would a single father do?  Probably ask his mother, or find someone next door to watch his kids so that he can go to the gym.  Would you be upset with him for doing that?

 "I am talking about married women, who doesn‘t work, lives off entirely of their husband, and yet leave their children with with nannies and such while they spend the day in the gim. It‘s not like they have a hard life, isn‘t it ? From 6 of my neighbours, 5 of them, the wife doesn‘t work at all. "

The average American woman works outside the home, because most American families cannot live on one income.  Child care is usually necessary because mothers have to work - not just because they are going to the gym, or need to have their nails done.  American stay at home moms usually live on a shoestring budget, and they make that choice because they want to be home with their children, and in that case, they can‘t afford nannies, or much else.

It is only the rich that can afford nannies.  And as far as "living entirely off husbands" that usually only happens among the "rich" as well.  You might see it in "reality" shows.  You don‘t see much of it in American life.

I don‘t view the average stay at home mom as "living off" of anyone, because truthfully, many of them work much harder than those who have an outside job.  The only difference is that they don‘t have set hours, and they don‘t get paid for it.  Cooking, cleaning, laundry, shopping, and running after toddlers is hard work and is exhausting.  If a man were to pay someone to do all of that for him, he wouldn‘t be able to afford the help.  It takes some superior management skills to run a household.

And if a woman in that situation needs to go to the gym - or have her nails done - I say more power to her! 

And when you‘re talking divorce and the woman getting the house, and the "good car" and "still living at the cost of a husband" let me enlighten you about a few things.

The judge grants the car and the house to the woman, usually, because she has the kids.  However, unless the man is forced to pay alimony, she bears the cost of the house payments, the homeowners insurance, the vehicle payments, the vehicle insurance, and the utilities to run the household, as well as any household bills. The rationale given to her is that since she has the house, she gets the bills that go with it.  Plumbers, electricians, and home maintenance are expensive unless she can do all of that work herself

"To be given alimony is almost granted if the woman doesnt work. Of course those bills will be granted to HER in those cases where there aren‘t alimony. Because if the man had to pay that, it would be alimony!! Now it‘s her house, her bills to pay. "

And if she worked throughout the marriage, there is no alimony.  And a court order may order the man to pay "some" of the debts from the marriage, but it often takes contempt of court charges to get them to do so.

Because most women do work, very few men are required to pay spousal support.  And laws vary from state to state. 

"And her attorney will advise her that if she can‘t afford it, she should probably sell it.  And if she can‘t afford it, the judge will usually order the house to be sold."

"in all that, everything sounds exactly fair."

Yes, I would agree that it‘s good advice.  If she can‘t afford the house, it should be sold.  But it also points to the fact that she doesn‘t necessarily "end up" with the house.  And when it is sold, the proceeds are 50/50 - while the bills that go with it are not.

The above scenario is more common these days - the result of women working.  Not so many men are paying alimony these days. 

"According to this statistic, 84% of the child/spouse support is paid by men."

84% of men are not paying spousal support.

The 84% statistic is because most of the kids are by and large still being raised by mothers.  Child support  doesn‘t come close to recouping the costs of actually raising children. 

"For that matter, child support is cut in half - it‘s proportioned based on income - her salary as well as his.  So the child support obligation is not solely based on the man.  And an awful lot of men don‘t pay child support, even when they are court-ordered to, and it is the law."

And what happens when they don‘t pay ?

Well, let‘s see, what happens.

Would you like a real life scenario?

Husband moves out, moves in with girlfriend, conveniently gets laid off his job, and "works under the table."  He petitions to get his child support "lowered" (since it is based on his "income.").  His support gets lowered to an amount that doesn‘t cover the cost of gas each month to pick up one of his daughters from sports practice.

This is a truckdriver who clears about $4,000 a month take home (after taxes).  He files fraudulent L & I claims.  He does everything to beat the system.

He can go up to six months if he wants to - not paying support - based on the fact that he has to be a couple thousand in arrears before they can put him in jail.

In the meantime, the kids‘ needs don‘t stop or go away.  So we rob Peter to pay Paul to make ends meet while he lives with his girlfriend, works under the table, and lives the life of Riley.

In order for DCS to collect support, they have to know where he lives, where he works.  Pretty tough to collect anything if a guy works under the table.  In order to seize a bank account, they have to have the bank and account numbers.  If his assets are in someone else‘s name, they can‘t seize his assets.  He is smart enough to know this.  In order to serve him, they have to have a good address - out of state - to go find him.  It takes an aggressive caseworker to unearth these things, and most do not bother. 

I had to pay a $1500 retainer fee for an attorney, and invested many hours lost from work to not only recoup child support, but to be reimbursed for his share of the doctor bills, orthodontic bills, eye glasses, and all of the expenses he reneged on  in the court orders.  It was only when he was a couple days away from going to jail that he finally paid, and even then, it was only a fraction of what was actually spent on those kids.

"not so long ago, Romario, the famous soccer palyer from my country, was put in JAIL because he did not paid child support, and even though it was a just a mistake, he stayed for one entire day in prison."

I am not saying that was fair or equitable.  But how was it a "mistake?"  Did the check get lost in the mail?  What happened exactly?  I know in the United States, they don‘t "just" put anyone in jail.  What you describe does not happen in the majority of cases.

The scenario I described above is real common.  A lot of women never pursue going after it, because it‘s too much trouble.

 "As of 2003, 43.7% of custodial mothers and 56.2% of custodial fathers were either separated or divorced. And in 2002, 7.8 million Americans paid about $40 billion in child and/or spousal support (84% of the payers were male)."

You aren‘t mentioning how much of that $40 billion is "back support."  Nor are you considering what the actual cost of raising all those children was. 

Let‘s say a man‘s child support obligation - for 3 kids - is $1000 a month.  Sounds like a lot of money, right?

$1000 is less than the average house payment - and even rent payment - nowadays.  The average food budget is going to be about one-third of that.  There are also haircuts, clothing bills, shoes, school supplies, lunch money for kids, sports fees, sports uniforms, and in many cases, orthodontia, prescriptions, doctor visits, transportation costs, One visit to the ER can pretty well break you up in business.  I can tell you that $1000 doesn‘t come close to covering the actual costs.

Not to mention that the average woman doesn‘t need a 3 bedroom house if she is living alone.  She‘ll probably opt out of the SUV as well, because it‘s a gas hog.  If she‘s driving one, chances are, it‘s because she has kids to transport.

Child support is a drop in the bucket compared to the actual cost of raising children.  It is usually cheaper to pay support than it is to raise kids. And there are a lot of dads who refuse to pay it at all, which is why DCS was invented. 

"Since it dpeends on how much you earn, well, I can say that this is not the case. If the guy earns a lot of money, he will have to pay more. in the case of Romario,  that I mentioned ealier, he pays around what wuold be 50k dollars every month to his ex."

If Romario earns big bucks - which he would have to - if he is court ordered to pay 50k every month - that 50k might not be as much of a hardship to him as it would to anyone else.  If he lived in the States, and say he had to give up his "superstar" status, his child support obligation would be lowered accordingly.

I agree that that‘s an astronomical figure, and ridiculous.  Those people are playing in a far bigger arena than I am.  They‘re rich.  They are also not the majority.

I live in a community property state.  Since I worked full-time, there was no alimony.  No big deal - I wouldn‘t have asked for it anyway.  But what that meant for me was that I had all the same bills, the same expenses, with one third the income.  The "good vehicle" you describe was an SUV with high payments and too many miles on it for trade-in, and expensive repairs.  It didn‘t take too long for the house and SUV and all the bills left behind to break me up in business. The ex was asked whether he wanted the vehicle he "just had to have" at the time, and he declined. 

"Well, you constantly talk about your bad experiences. But that is the norm, or the majority. How much in % of divorced women in América receives alimony ? How many get houses, and such. Because, those who constantly complaining about losing half of their stuff in divorces are American men. I am not inventing things. I found that around 450k people on America recently are receiving alimony, and I guess the majority is women."

The point is, I actually know what I am talking about because I have lived it.  I have lived life - I don‘t just watch TV and surf the Internet.  And I know a lot of working, single mothers, and what their life experiences have been.  My life experience is not at all unusual.  I know that state agencies would not exist for the sole purpose of collecting child support if all parents paid.  I know that legislation wouldn‘t have been passed to seize assets and income tax refunds if this were not a national problem.

Very few divorced women in America receive alimony.  If you are saying 450,000 total women in America are receiving spousal maintenance, that is a very small portion of the national population. 

And my point is - "getting houses" isn‘t much of a bargain really - and means nothing if she can‘t keep the house  The only reason she is being awarded the house is because she is generally the parent raising the children, and the children need a home. 

And yes - men do complain about "losing half their stuff in divorces."  I understand how they feel.  What I am doing here is presenting the other side.  Not all women end up with everything.  And that many times, being the one who doesn‘t end up with all that can be an advantage.

I might as well have walked away from the house from the beginning because I ended up losing it anyway.  And you know what?  It wasn‘t such a bad thing.

The SUV I mentioned was totaled in a car accident 6 months after the divorce was final.  By the time, they paid off the loan, they awarded me about $2,000 which was not close to the blue book value on the vehicle (but it never is in those cases).  I replaced it with a cheap lemon car where there were no car payments.

One thing I learned is that material things can be replaced.  Hell, you can even pick up decent furniture sometimes at garage sales.  One thing I don‘t mind is starting over.  Sometmes it‘s better to buy it yourself, and not have to deal with the memories associated with it.

Dishes, pots/pans, furniture, "stuff" - can all be replaced.  Losing "half the stuff" also means downsizing, and losing a lot of the baggage that goes with it.

How men fare in a divorce all depends on who has the better attorney, who presents the best case, and who has the most money to fight.  In a lot of cases, it is the men.  So don‘t kid yourself - not all men get screwed.

http://divorce.lovetoknow.com/Alimony_Figures

"The fact that you did not have the luck of having a good provider as husband doesn‘t mean you would not have this right if he was, understand, and that is the case of many out there. If my father and my mother ever get divorce she surely would get the house."

I wouldn‘t have had the right to alimony, because I have always worked. 

And no I did not have the "luck" of ending up with a "good provider."  Truthfully, a lot of men today are not good providers.  And that is among the reasons why I think it is really important for women to work and to be able to earn their own living.  Relying on men isn‘t always smart.

And even if women marry a "good provider" - that doesn‘t mean he can‘t get cancer, become disabled, or get killed.  She needs to be able to take care of herself.

And that is the primary reason I responded to this thread to start with.  A lot of women aren‘t expecting men to work overtime - as in the original scenario described - or sending them to an early heart attack - just so that they can have a new couch.  I resent the stereotype.

I played the hand I was dealt.  I honored my commitments and my responsibilities.  I honored my choices - good, bad, wrong, or indifferent.  I don‘t see myself as a victim.  I am a survivor. 

There are a lot of women out there raising children by themselves who are a helluva lot worse off than I was. 

My attitude comes from living it.  My confidence also comes from surviving and overcoming hardships. 

As I said before - When you‘ve walked a mile in my shoes, you can judge me.

"I do everything in my life so I never have the possibility of walking in "your shoes". My father says "the safe dies from old age."

Then we had best hope your girlfriend doesn‘t become unexpectedly pregnant, and that life never "happens" to you.  Probably best not to be too "smug" because you can‘t always predict your future - or know exactly what you "will" do - until you are faced with the situation.  It is easy to say "I will never do this or that" when you haven‘t been through it.

Hey, I would happily give the average man the entire experience of pregnancy, labor, childbirth, and breast feeding.  And a birth control pill for men would be a fabulou idea.  As Gloria Steinem once said, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. 

Nothing changes the fact that going trhoug all that stuff is A CHOICE for a woman.

I am not playing the "victim" card.  I am presenting reality.  Reality is that a lot of men think with their dick, and expect to get off scot free when it comes to consequences.  And they did - for quite a few years!  And even with the changes in the laws, many are still evading responsibility. 

And the girls who get pregnant at 15 think with what ? Their clitoris ? And, one more time NOTHING CHANGES the fact that becoming a parent will be a CHOICE for women, while not for men. and you are playing the victim card. You are saying that a woman getting pregnant is because men think with their dicks. Men chose to have sex as much as women. Women can have ALL THE CHOICES about avoiding responsibility in terms of abortion and adoption, and even child support. Men don‘t have those choices. IS EASY TO UNDERSTAND THAT.

What man lies about having a vasectomy?  It taught me that you really can‘t trust anyone when it comes to being safe. I definitely agree with you on this one.

To bad you did not had someone like me, who knows by instinct that nobody can be trusted, to tell you this before, right ? And one more thing. Why did you ask "what kind of man" does this or that TO ME ? I have nothing to do with it. You should be telling "what kind of man", because aparently, is the kind of man you go out with. I personaly, haven‘t met any. It‘s again the victim card.

"Single parent" means raising children without a partner.  Divorced, never married, what‘s the difference? 

Well, divorced means you were married, while my understanding of single is someone who was never married. Once you got married, you are never going to be single, as, in forms, you would have to tell you are divorced.

Men also rarely use contraception - they rely on women to do it.  They also don‘t get pregnant, don‘t carry the child to term, and often aren‘t the ones to bear the responsibility of raising a child.  They never have to experience abortion, and they don‘t live with the aftermath of what goes with it.  Many of them don‘t plan on sticking around much after conception. 

Like I said, men have less options in terms of contraception. Women have again all the choices when it comes to it. Condons are just not enough. In a few first world countries, around 500000 abortions are made every year. remember again, women have this choice, and women fight for those choices. Men have none.

 Many of them think only with their dick.

Irrelevan. Many women also think with their huhas. And that does nnot take away their choices.

Good for you for realizing this.  Have the two of you talked about what happens if contraception fails?  What is your role if that happens?

In my country abortion is illegal, so I will have no choice in that matter either. The solution will be to raise the child.

I know people who have had to give up children for adoption, and that choice was excruciating - for many years afterward.  I think all of them would have made quite different choices if the fathers of those babies had been willing to stick by them.  What was the man‘s "choice" then?  Oh I remember - it was to get the hell out of dodge.

They cannot get the hell out. A court order will follow you anywhere you go. You are again playing the victim card. As if all women who makes abortions or give to adoption is the fault of the men they have been with.

certainly, those women in point were already with unstable  men, and certainly, this isn‘t the majority of the cases.

later I will continue

Victim Card?  I think it‘s you playing the victim card that for the first time in history, men actually have to be accountable for where they put their dick. 

When it comes to sex, both sexes have equal choices.  My point is, and continues to be, that a woman does not get pregnant by herself.  I suppose in your eyes, that is all her fault, too.

When it comes to consequences, traditionally it has been women left holding the bag.  And for the 15 year old girl thinking with her clitoris, what is the male doing?  Again, it takes two.

You talk about double standards.  Here is one that is centuries old - that women are branded "whores" for having sex, but men having sex - with any willing partner at any time - is considered "normal" and just "being a guy." 

If you bring a child into the world, you have a responsibility. That is a pretty foreign concept to a lot of men.

Boo-hoo about being followed around by a court order.  Boo-hoo about having to pay child support.  Boo-hoo to the poor men who never lose a single night‘s sleep caring for a crying baby that they fathered and abandoned.  Child support is nothing compared to the responsibility - or the costs of raising kids.

If a man never wants to be faced with that possibility, then he, too, needs to take precautions, and to have the discussion about what happens if contraception fails.  Because sometimes it does fail.

And no, I am not playing a "victim card" about being a single mother, because I don‘t regret it.  I love my 3 daughters, would happily walk through fire for all 3 of them, and I am now the proud new grandmother of  wonderful baby boy named Jack.  I wouldn‘t trade a single moment of my life to be deprived of the joy and happiness I have now, and I consider my 3 kids to be my single greatest achievement.  They are amazing people and they were worth every single thing I ever went through and more.  "My choice" was to give birth to my children - planned or not - to raise them to adulthood - and to be responsible.

And yeah - I dated their loser dad.  I made mistakes.  I trusted the wrong person.  So what?  He was a garden variety loser, just like a lot of guys.  I was not the first - or the only - to be wrong about him.  Had it not been for the Division of Child Support, I am sure he would never have paid a dime.  I am sure he would love to say that he didn‘t have a "choice."

Life was what happened when I was busy making other plans, and for me, it turned out to be a total blessing.

Because women are the ones to get pregnant, to endure pregnancy and childbirth, and care for the child, they have the right to choose.  They don‘t get out of the consequences whatever way they go - abortion, adoption, or keeping the baby.

If a man fathers a child, he incurs a responsibility.  If a woman gets pregnant, she, too, incurs a responsibility.  It takes two. 

Wire, I thank you for initiating a stimulating discussion and inspiring much food for thought.

It is Christmas - peace on earth and good will to men (and women).

I don‘t think you can truly say how you would feel - or what you would do - in any situation, until you are faced with the reality of what it is, or what it means.  I don‘t think that applies only to women, but to men, too.

I know that once my children became a reality, I became a different person.  Life was no longer just about me - my needs, my wants, or my convenience.  Everything changed, and thank God for that.

I have a nephew who got his girlfriend pregnant a few years ago.  My sister was horrified.  Everyone thought it was a disaster.  I don‘t think he was too thrilled at first, either.

And then - his son was born - 3 lb. and over 2 months premature.  The baby was an incubator for a very long time, and had all kinds of special health care needs.  Our concern over my nephew‘s unplanned  fatherhood completely disappeared, as his baby boy struggled for his life, and an amazing thing happened - my nephew turned into a "daddy."

He has since had a daughter - also born prematurely - who is now a year and a half old, and she is a positive delight.  I call them "miracle babies."

We all marvel over what miracles these children are, and how beautiful they are, and I am pretty sure there isn‘t a single person who would now say they shouldn‘t have been born.

My nephew, too, is a changed man, and a wonderful daddy. It warms my heart to see it, and he‘s now doing tremendous things in his life - all motivated by the fact that he now has little people who are dependent on him. 

As far as your comment about men being able to sever legal connections to children, they can and they do.  If parental rights are terminated, all obligations for child support cease and desist. 

And lab births and test tube babies?  Why would you want to?

When I look at your ages, I am surprised that you already have such a cynical attitude toward women and relationships.  What has your life experience been like to bring you to this point? 

I will be the first to admit that I have a cynical attitude when it comes to a lot of men.  But I have a lot of life experience to back it up, and for all the men that burned me, I see lots of others out there who are great guys and wonderful family men.. I wasn‘t one of the lucky ones, but that doesn‘t mean they don‘t exist.  Now I‘m 53, doing the best I ever have financially and emotionally, and my life is complete.  I say "If it ain‘t broke, don‘t fix it."

I sure as hell didn‘t feel that way at 25!

I‘m very sorry, Wire, that you didn‘t get to raise the child you fathered.  I can see that that experience caused you a great deal of emotional pain.  It sounds like you & your partner made a difficult choice, and it sounds like the choice was mostly hers to terminate the pregnancy.

I know when I was faced with a similar choice, that I just couldn‘t do it.  I  know that I would feel just as you do - tortured, and constantly wondering what that child would have been like.  I‘m really sorry to hear you had to go through that.

1816-1918-women fought for the right to vote, but were not considered "persons" under the law.

1925-women win the right to obtain a divorce (prior to this a man could leave a woman for any reason; it was legal for men to assault their wives but illegal for said wives to leave them).

1940-women won the right to vote. 

1960-aboriginals were given the right to vote.

1970-women were allowed in the military

1972-first black woman elected to office.  there are currently none in office.

1993-canada‘s first female prime minister

in the U.S.

1920-Women (but not minorities) are given the right to vote

birth control was still illegal.

1960-birth control pills approved by the fda, and still illegal for sale.

1965-laws banning the use of contraceptives by married couples are repealed.

1968-sex segregated want ads in newspapers are banned.

1970-it was revealed that employers change the job titles of women in order to pay them less than men in the same position...who here has ever been a "personal assistant" instead of the vice president of sales and marketing? uh-huh.

1972-laws banning the use of contraceptives by unmarried people are repealed.

1972-sex discrimination in schools is ended.  Many Colleges take on their first female students.

1974-companies argue against equal wage, stating that "men simply will not work at the low wage offered women" and lose in court.

1976- it becomes illegal (finally) for a man to rape his wife

1994-the violence against women act tightens penalties for rape

currently:

-a man who stabs another man at a bar is sentenced to between six months and three years in jail for assault.  He is forced to pay the medical bills for the person with whom he had the altercation

-a man who stabs his wife is told to please leave her alone.  for a first offence jail time usually does not occur.  The woman is expected to "protect herself" by going to a woman‘s shelter.

-the onus is on women to prove rape. for example, a man was not convicted of the rape of a three year old because it was deemed that she was "behaving in a sexualized manner"

-recently two young men raped a 12 year old girl in the city I live in.  They were not charged because  "she represented herself as a highly sexualized 16 year old girl on myspace".  The boys admitted to being fully aware of her age when they got her drunk and raped her.

-In Toronto, Canada a man raped six women within a five-block radius of one another during a six month period.  When one of the women attempted to warn others in her neighbourhood that there was a rapist living nearby, charges were laid against HER for obstruction of justice.

So, when did things change?  That is actually a very good question.

I really think it‘s time to stop touting rape and DV as though it happens all the time.  I‘m going to make a very specific counterargument to this, so make sure you don‘t confuse what I‘m saying.  Now in a lot of circumstances, in the classic feminine defensive, I might say, "Not all men do that."

No, I‘m going to say the vast majority of men don‘t do that.  In fact, I‘ve only known one man who I would describe as "abusive", and he‘s in prison for multiple violent charges.  Imagine that.

It‘s an unethical argument tactic to bring up evidence that could objectively be called anecdotal, at best.

I notice that many women use that as a catch-all phrase now.  It doesn‘t even matter what he did or the context in which he did it.  Slip that "abusive" label on him and bam- he‘s guilty.  Let‘s get ‘im.  I notice that every now and then when I see reviews on the homepage here.  I guess I just don‘t take that word as seriously anymore ever since I first heard the term "mind-rape", whatever that means.

While rape isn‘t ever justified, I have to say, stories in which a man actually has to rape his wife in order to get sex from her tell me that maybe I shouldn‘t get married.  I make quite clear when I start dating someone, if she ever tries to manipulate me via the withholding of sex, the relationship is over.  Right there. 

It‘s true that not all men abuse.  There are a lot of good men in the world who never mistreat anybody.  And men aren‘t the only ones who abuse - women can be abusive too.

However, domestic violence is hardly "anecdotal." or something that only occurs in a few random cases.  There wouldn‘t be women‘s shelters overflowing across the country, protection orders, legislation, etc. if it were not a huge national problem.  There wouldn‘t be administrative policies in the workplace, crime victims compensation granted to victims, or address confidentiality programs, if this was a "rare" occurrence.  There are too many statistics to support the need for all of these things.

If you have never experienced it yourself, it is easy to pooh pooh it as someone else‘s problem, or to say it doesn‘t exist.   

And you can‘t go just go to court  and automatically "get" a protection order. I have a lifetime restraining order against my ex-husband, and they don‘t just hand them out. 

I agree that the word "abuse" is getting way over-used.  There are people who think that having to go to work is abuse, or not getting their way is abuse, or swatting a kid on the butt is abuse. 

But that doesn‘t mean it isn‘t a real problem.