WomanSavers.com Forum / MEN'S AREA / nice guys

i didn‘t write this so don‘t bother slamming me, i have however heard this from a couple of men over the years.

why don‘t woman want nice guys?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she‘s such a Heartless Bitch for dumping him."

I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like ****, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea."

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

What‘s wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It‘s no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it‘s being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn‘t appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn‘t want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I‘m here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn‘t mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don‘t like themselves. Is it any wonder women don‘t like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".

Get this Guys: INSECURITY ISN‘T SEXY. IT‘S A TURNOFF.

You don‘t have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible.

1. Women do sometimes like to be treated like **** because they are addicted to drama and they want to have something to talk about with their friends. They like to come off as the better person in the relationship. However, some don‘t grow up out of this juvenile mindset and they don‘t understand that even if you find a good guy, you can‘t rely on him to always be witty, or funny. Sometimes he likes to sit and watch television or read a book. He can‘t always entertain you. You have to accept that quiet, semi-isolationist aspect of him and love him for who he is. Strong but kind. Tough but sensitive at appropriate times. If you always expect to be entertained and can‘t be satisfied in just BEING with him, then you are the problem. Marc Rudov had it right that women have to learn to make themselves happy to and to be satisfied with themselves. It‘s not all up to the man.

2. As for nice guys being clingly, this is a ring of truth to this. You can‘t jump right in and act like you are soul mates. There may be an initial attraction due to physique, the way you talk, common books or movies read, etc, but that‘s just the starting point. Since, as other women will attest to, that I believe in leaving a cheater NO MATTER WHAT THE SITUATION, that means that you have to be strong and be willing to be on your own and not settle for a bad mate just so you can‘t be alone. When two people have this independent mindset and are still in a relationship, what it means is that they can handle being alone, but they just prefer the company of someone else. Security and satisfaction with being alone, yet simultaneous enjoyment of the comapny of another is what makes a person really grown up and able to be in a relationship with another person. This prevents you from being possessive and possibly from descending into madness if the relationship goes sour. This can take two possible forms.

1. I must get her back (potentional stalker)
2. If I can‘t have her, no one can (potential violence)

As for the comment that nice guys get too forward too quickly, that is true. I have seen it a lot. Also the strategy that you can be friends and then work your way into her heart is niceguy bull**** that females helped propogate so that they could easily have a steady supply of men and then choose whom they really wanted. It‘s a female test to see which of the men will either take her crap, or believe everything she says and never say no to her. Lack of a backbone is not a masculine trait and is not desired by women. However, if guys can‘t see through the bull**** and realize that being nice and clingy doesn‘t work, tough **** for them. The retrosexual is not making a comeback. It is what females have always wanted but they have to weed out the weaklings so to speak. Nothing wrong with that. Women want strong but moral men, while men want youthful women. They go for their opposites. It just is that way.

As for the niceguy putting on a mask to win the woman, that is exactly the same kind of behavior that Nietzsche indicted women on when he said that they fulfill the images that men have of them in their minds for the sake of love. Both sexes do this. How else do you explain for example SOME of the stories on here about women who say their husbands get more abusive or show their real selves after a few years of marriage? I say SOME because not all women deliberately ignore red flags.

Women do like take charge men and I can see why letting women choose things sometimes too much can be a turn off. If he can‘t say no or stand up for what he wants or what he thinks is right, what kind of a parent would he be? Would he be tough or too easy going like Homer Simpson in that episode where Bart was going to go and see the Itchy and Scratchy movie and it took some pestering from Marge to get him to realize that punishment straightens kids out. Certainly it helps than just not caring like Homer.

To bring it back to saying no or leaving decisions up to the woman, if a men can‘t or won‘t decide things that he can or should, a woman will wonder where his sense of purpose, resolve and ability to make any kind of choice (tough ones being among this category) is. A no nonsense man for example would be one who is say, able to work out finances, deal with car bills, say no to bratty kids or annoying friends, etc.

"Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I‘m here."

It certainly could be construed that way. This is a very good point. A good insight. On the other hand, it could be turned around and the niceguy could say, "You are so wonderful but no one else will see it because they are too blind whereas my eyes are wide open to how amazing you are." To me, this is being clingy and it shows a weak person that just HAS to be in a relationship and can‘t stand to be alone. They have little independence in their overall spirit. A lack of a will to be strong enough to stand alone if necessary.

"More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip! "

Bing-mother****ing-go. That‘s why I think some ladies need to get a grip when they take back men who have ****ed around on them. Just have a general take no **** attitude.

As for trying to help damaged women or head cases, playing psychologist or being an emotional tampon is not a turn on. It doesn‘t win hearts. Being an overly sensitive niceguy doesn‘t work. That was female propaganda designed to weed out the losers. And I think it‘s a brilliant and smart strategy. To follow exactly what others tell you to do, means you are a lemming. You are a sheep. You are not independent in spirit and you care what other people think. AND THAT‘S SUPPOSED TO IMPRESS YOUR MATE?

Liking yourself and having an independent spirit and a willingness to be alone, yet being willing to share your life with a partner if you find one you like, thus drastically minimizing the room for jealousy, fear and possessiveness is what is needed.

It also doesn‘t hurt to be ripped and built like Brad Pitt or Peter North. And to be well experienced in bed. Because it seems that as each generation goes and comes, women are less and less willing to be patient with guys and trying to teach them stuff about their bodies if they aren‘t as experienced as say her past boyfriend. But if they aren‘t good right away and need a little time or hints, but if it bothers the woman to take this kind of time, then she obviously doesn‘t like the guy that much. And that says something about the woman. 

Thus I am leads to wonder how many male whores are doing it just because they are whores, or because they see that other women are whore and are like, "Okay fine, I‘ll play their game. But I can also get some practice in so that I can really impress that one girl I really want."

Obviously this does not apply to men with wives or long time girlfriends. These guys have someone to practice with and try new techniques out on. A woman is is somewhat intelligent and thus who actually understands that not everything will click at once but that it can in good time if the guy wants it to and pays enough attention to what he is asked to do for his woman. So when they cheat, they can‘t use the above, "I‘m just practicing and learning new things," when they have someone at home they can do that with.

Oh, bother!  I‘m going to comment without having read all of that.  I read enough to know that the supposition has been around since before Delilah shaved off Samson‘s hair because he was a nice guy and trusted her.

I‘m a nice guy.  Forty years ago I made a bad choice and then I lived with it for 25 years.  It was my mistake in the first place but I had made a commitment and I made the best of and honored it until she picked up and left.

Now I‘m an even nicer guy and I‘ve been married for 12 years to a good woman.

Nice guys don‘t always come in last.  Some of us actually find nice gals who appreciate and value us.  Those are the ones worth waiting for!

Amen to your last three sentences.  And it‘s nice to see you again, Oldwiz! 

I think there is a difference between a nice guy, and a dysfunctional ‘nice‘ guy. There are some nice guys who have the ability to strike a balance between the two extremes we are discussing. Not all nice guys are cheesy insecure wimps.

I think, Drew, that while there is the potential for a LOT of trusth in what you say...some of the examples you painted above are not always true. Some women really do get to a stage in life where they would like a man to try being friends first and see if anything develops by him being patient to try and ‘win her heart....‘. Times I have been interested in more than one man, were times I simply didnt know what I wanted....confused...not deliberate or shrewd in my dating tactics. It also takes me awhile to swallow the whole man; get to wrap my head around who he is; time for feeling safe and trust to develop. Yes, women will always enjoy being persued and beiung treated like a queen....and the pursuits therein of a man who is trying to woo her. I think this is a good thing! As I am learning, some men can play this game well and as soon as the woman responds or becomes physically intimate with him, the way he treats her subtly changes. Who is to say which ‘game‘ came first, the chicken or the egg? The point is in life BOTH men and women have re-aligned their game to protect themselves, or get what they want. And I do not agree it is the best or most wholesome way, and anybody playing those games is not being honest with themselves or doing themselves any favors by throwing their personal dignity in the trash can by surrendering to playing those games. Just my opinion....there sure are many sides to it and Im sure we all have our angle in which we see or interpret it.......

That being said, I do think many things can be learned from this article (and things Drew said)....

I do think balance can be achieved...I have seemed to see a lot more of this in older wiser men...hahaha....I cant say I blame younger guys for trying to play the game as it seems in society it is the mans role to be the pursuer and I do not envy them for that job! Ultimately a man can be nice/moral and still  have standards, goals, dominance, and independence. Cant say ive had much luck in this department, but I still believe for the best and try not to be jaded! :)

odd, i insist on dying alone.

ever wonder why those slutty single mothers are looking for affection and meals?

Here is what my experience has shown me.  Women will get a "nice guy", one they always say they want.  Then they end up dumping them, or shunning them for the "bad boy".  They like the "bad boy" because of the "excitement".

But then the "bad boy" does what is expected of him.....screw over the woman, and all of a sudden the "bad boy" is now an asshole womanizer, and rightfully so.

But then, I guess around the age of 30 or 40, women come to a realization that they really DO want a nice guy.  But in my opinion its only to keep from getting sh!t all over.  They are only settling for the "nice guy" in my opinion when they still really want a bad boy, they just don‘t want the heartache a bad boy brings to the table.

I had to turn down a woman one time because I knew the types of guys she liked.  Partiers, guys who were perceived as "natural selection" type of guys.  not saying us good guys aren‘t good looking and have bodies hard as a rock, but we just aren‘t that into partying and putting forth that "bad boy" aura.

When she asked me why I turned her down, i had to tell her that i wasn‘t her type.  She kept asking why I thought that, I had to remind her of the guys she dated and sarcastically told her, "I‘m not a man‘s man like those guys you typically go after".  She rolled her eyes, blurted out an expletive, and walked off.........obviously confirming my theory on her preference and character.  I was pleased to be proven right.

I‘d like to believe you, and still have hope.

but I think too many of us non-"bad boys" are just being settled for out of stability and the women‘s desire to not be treated like sh!t.

You don‘t think deep down your woman wouldn‘t really like to strap herself on to a "bad boy" if she thought you‘d never know?

Dang TB!

Well I was married to a BAD BOY,  I really liked that about him,  As I got older the bad boy ways got on my nerves.  I grew in a lot of ways and he didn‘t.

He is still the bad boy,  He still thinks he is a bad ass.

I am dating a man that treats me with respect, that works at a church,  he doesn‘t drink,  doesn‘t smoke and has never tried a illegal drug in his life.  We go to the movies, camping, boating, church, and have card parties and I have never been happier in my life!  So this 42 year old is DONE with the bad boys!!

But the question is, are you forsaking the bad boys now for stability?

Is there any part of you that wishes you could be with a bad boy for just a little while any more?

MTB

I though about this last night and my honest answer is,  I miss somethings about him,  but none of them are what made him the bad boy.

I miss putting on my leathers on a saturday morning and taking off for a ride up the beach  on the Harley.  I do not miss him wanting to stop at several bars along the way.  I also do not miss that he only wanted to go riding if other couples went. 

I decided that my life with CB is much better and he makes me very happy,  he does things for me,  we do alot of stuff alone and still have an amazing time.  Yes I wish he liked motorcylces,  but he doesn‘t.  If that is the only thing I have to give up to be with a wonderful man like him,  it is so worth it.  He isn‘t a prude by any means,  he just chooses to live a comfortable, clean life style,  and If I want to have a glass of wine  or a cocktail at dinner,  he will order me one. (not that I ever drink much either)  I did quit smoking last year because he asked me too.  But hell we all know that that only benifited me!

I have many regrets  but I dont feel like I am settling just to be secure!  I do not miss the bad boy ways!!

Well here is one for you that I read at other forums from women who claim that they are "just being honest"....and that is they like bad boys because the sex is better.

Thoughts?

Oh Hell NO!!

The sex is much better with the nice guy!!

He puts me first,  its all about me to him! Which makes me want to be all about him.  With my bad boy it was all about what he wanted about what pleased him  it didn‘t matter what I wanted.

 Plus just because he is a nice guy in public doesn‘t mean that he has to be a good boy in bed!

I had to turn down a woman one time because I knew the types of guys she liked.  Partiers, guys who were perceived as "natural selection" type of guys.  not saying us good guys aren‘t good looking and have bodies hard as a rock, but we just aren‘t that into partying and putting forth that "bad boy" aura.

When she asked me why I turned her down, i had to tell her that i wasn‘t her type.  She kept asking why I thought that, I had to remind her of the guys she dated and sarcastically told her, "I‘m not a man‘s man like those guys you typically go after".  She rolled her eyes, blurted out an expletive, and walked off.........obviously confirming my theory on her preference and character.  I was pleased to be proven right."

Exactly, MTB. Good thing you avoided these women. They would have just cheated on you anyway. Just like niceguy who posted RECENTLY CHEATED ON AND NEED YOUR THOUGHTS. And of course, if you deprive a woman of her chance to **** on you and take your money through divorce, you‘re a selfish man who hates all women. The shaming language will commence when you engage in self preservation. However, when a woman wants to have some money of hers, and keep it, and protect herself from predatory men, she‘s a strong women and gets showered with shouts of, ‘you go girl,‘ Notice the double standard.

Well I was married to a BAD BOY,  I really liked that about him,  As I got older the bad boy ways got on my nerves.  I grew in a lot of ways and he didn‘t."

You married him thinking he would change. Thus it‘s your fault.

"He is still the bad boy,  He still thinks he is a bad ass."

You just said he is a bad boy.

"I am dating a man that treats me with respect, that works at a church,  he doesn‘t drink,  doesn‘t smoke and has never tried a illegal drug in his life.  We go to the movies, camping, boating, church, and have card parties and I have never been happier in my life!  So this 42 year old is DONE with the bad boys!"

It‘s called settling so that you won‘t be alone. But aw shicks...If only your new man liked motorcycles and had one. Only then would it be perfect I suppose.

I always went for the seemingly quiet gentle types...in particular the man who brought me to this site. My brother in-law once described him as "timid" underneath it he was a complete non-person and a brooding angry control freak. I know other "nice guys" on a platonic basis and have found the same control-freakery and this fake-ass mr. sensitive sh*t is just a big turn-off...because any woman with smarts can sniff that its fake from 20 paces.

Then I tried a real bad-boy...for once...it ended badly and he was a total player...but I was in no way as hurt by it because I could see it coming...at least he wasn‘t f*cking fake!!!

i‘ve been thinking about this, true blue.

i have to say that being a "bad boy" seems to always involve the use of drugs and or alcohol.

in the absense of the use of drugs or alcohol, there seems to be an element of "risk-taking" with bad boys. like race car driving, riding motorcycles, ski diving, gambling and womanizing.

which makes men that do not over- indulge in drugs, drink, high risk sports or sex, seem kind of predictable.

does that make sense?