WomanSavers.com Forum / INSPIRATION FOR WOMEN / Why are women not happy anymore ?

According to this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcus-buckingham/whats-happening-to-womens_b_289511.html

Women are becoming more sad as times goes, while men are getting happier.

 I have recently seen this on the news and before that, I wondered this myself. Call me an old soul or perhaps very conservative and some women will shake their heads at me when I speak of my opinions on why as women we are not happy, but I will only go off by what I see and my personal views.

Okay when I look back at the golden era ( Leave it to Beaver- Lucy) on televesion you never see affairs happening, you never see women being used as a conduct of sexual favors. You see a woman, in an apron making a pie and handling situations accordingly with their children.while their husbands are at work making the bacon and bread to be placed on the table ( a source of stability). Some will even shake their heads when I say this but, in those times of the leave it to Beaver, there was a such thing called family foundation, morals, respect, consideration ( and i‘m not speaking on all of the circumstances of what women went through) but there was a sense of knowing that they are being taken care of, their house is there, their bills are being paid, and they can stay home with their children and provide their children - normally from same man- the proper ettiquette to influences expectations for social behavior .Chruches had been god fearing and respected now turning into a fad to call themselves goddly. 

Back then they had been able to sleep knowingly that their house isn‘t going to be robbed or they could be raped and leave their doors unlocked. A sense of saftey without the extra stress of bills, and responsibility that once used to be the role of the male to take on is something we have on our shoulders now.

Women had self respect to not dance on table tops in a bar and flash the next camera or man that came along ( because that‘s what we as a society implied upon them that this is what us girls/ women have to do to keep men satsified or to get attention even if it‘s the wrong kind ( lack of self respect and they don‘t even realize it) or that it is okay to keep having children by different men without being married ( a loss of family foundation and emotional stability)and men are no better. Men who idolize other men in the music industry or even on t.v in the media who have about 15 women scantedly dressed to get their attention on popular gameshows teaches our men what to look for in their significant others and value them accordingly to their looks because if it‘s on t.v or if their friends are doing it, it must be acceptable? and I can assure you that these men slept with each and everyone of those women on those shows, but what kind of influences and morals are we teaching our kids? That‘s it is okay to call your mother a    b-tch or do drugs, to call women hoes and skanks or even this one which I am still trying to figure out women being PROUD to be called a bitch. If anyone ever called me that I would be fuled. Or even mothers ( yes in my own age group and older ) who wipe their crotchy fingers on their daughter‘s cheeks and find that funny?( the Ozzys btw) What example are we teaching our children? Our feeling of distraught is that we as women are not only making up for the lack of what men have accomplished finacial, but also by trying to single handedly parent our kids and trying to keep up with looking -sexy- because that‘s what we have been told that , that was needed to keep our men interested, to warrant the bills, take care of homework that is much harder today than it was even 20 years back, dinner, extra occasions such as soccer practice, protected our house or place of interest, protecting our kids more now than EVER, even from other women. We watch on the news mother‘s killing their own children, I doubt that happened too often back then, and if it did not as often as we see it today.Back then if you were in an unfortunate situation and you did get a divorce ( which was very rare and not like now where more than 60 percent are or had mutliple divorces) the goverment was there to help you. Now like recently I tried to get on welfare and help provide for just me and my children if I were to leave my husband, I was unqualified and even if I was qualified to get govermental help, the pay alone was minimal, my rent anywhere you go was doubled, for a decent two bedroom aparment where I live with one bathroom and a simple garage nearly runs for about 1200, welfare? 800. It‘s easier for someone who doesn‘t have citizenship to get it then it would be for me. Yes I looked into it LOL.We are no longer being emotionally taken care of and traded emotional stability in for independance that doesn‘t garantee much.

I think in todays society we as women are degraded, not only by men but by other girls / women and our own goverment because they do not know what is moral just and socailly acceptable.

Consideration and respect is a lost art.

I think mostly what you said is right.

Great post.

It‘s interesting though, taht if women choose to marry young and have kids on their 20‘s, when they get on their 30 or 40 and get a divorce, they will be stuck with no money of their own and no carreer as well. Some of them will stay with their husbands just because of that.

That‘s probably why women are looking for their independence these days instead of family.

                                EXACTLY!

You took the feministic views right out of my mouth!

Ah bull****...  What makes you think that women were so happy then?  

A lot of the nostalgia for the 50‘s was propaganda.  We think everything is so much worse today, but the truth is, a lot more information is widely reported.  Rape, incest,  murders, and abortions happened back then too - it just wasn‘t so widely talked about.  Women hid a lot of unhappiness in the suburbs.

People forget that 10 years earlier, women ruled the workforce while their husbands went off to war.  "Rosie the Riveter" was famous. 

And "Leave it to Beaver" was just a TV show.  We didn‘t see Wally getting a girl pregnant, or Beaver losing his virginity, or the kids going to parties and smoking pot.  And at the end of the 30 minute show, whatever significant problem the family had, was "solved" by the eternal wisdom of Ward Cleaver.  Very few families were like that.

The feminist movement was by no means perfect, and did not provide the "eternal happiness" that many of its proponents claimed it would - but it did A LOT to provide opportunities for women.  I, for one, am delighted that women today have options to be more than teachers, secretaries, and nurses.

The early "bra burners" often came off as angry and ridiculous, but most movements are in the beginning.  The women who fought for the right to vote were perceived pretty much the same way 100 years earlier.  But if not for them, we wouldn‘t be where we are today.

"Independence" is a good thing.  I think it‘s positive when girls grow up expecting to take care of themselves instead of waiting around for some man to do it.  I think it‘s good for them to have their own goals, their own dreams, and their own ambitions.  Better than looking for some "successful" man to provide it for them.  If they can take care of themselves, maybe they won‘t settle for some guy that doesn‘t treat them well because they need his "paycheck."  Gold diggers are usually women who don‘t want to work.

Single parent households are pretty common nowadays, and they are just as "pro family" as anyone.  Not all of us are hitting the bars, and leaving our children.  There are plenty of mothers out there who have been both "mother and father" to their kids. 

I think the biggest problem most of us women have is that we read too many romance novels, and watch too many movies.  We think a relationship is supposed to be like that all the time.  The man is supposed to always be romantic, thoughtful, considerate, and funny - anticipating our every need.  But life just isn‘t like that.  Not over the long haul!  We do ourselves a huge disservice by living in a fantasy world.  We get disappointed when we find that the fantasy of "true love" is often a myth.  Sometimes what‘s really wrong isn‘t the spouse, but our expectations.

We compare ourselves to others.  We compare our husbands, our boyfriends, our jobs, our children, our houses, our lawns, our incomes, etc., which is what creates the "keep up with the Joneses" mentality, and all I can say is - As long as you do that, you will always feel dissatisfied.

Life is never perfect.  No job is perfect.  No marriage is perfect.  And your children won‘t be perfect.

The problem with feminism, for so many, has been taking the bad with the good.  Most women who work have two jobs - the 40 hour work week, with the household and the family.  Instead of just "having it all" they have to "do it all."

Most people are as happy as they make up their minds to be.  No one does it for you.  If you can‘t always change your circumstances, change your attitude.  It makes a huge difference. 

 Are you really serious?

   Are you going to say that there are more family structure and foundations today then it was a decade ago?

 There are more juvis and minors in the court system then there ever was due to the lack of supervision, more children in foster care, and babies being dumped in trash cans or children being left at bus stops.12 year olds are having sex already and starting their periods more now than ever and can go without parental obligation to any clinic to get the morning after pill or birth control without fear of consiquence, there may of had been severe consiquence for getting pregnant while not married or due to an affair back then,, but it was feared by moral standards not only by actual parental guidance ( not saying that is the case in all families back then, some were infact abused or abussive).Rape being an exception.

 Feminsim provided? If you are talking about voting for presidents that do nothing for this country then I will gladly offer that freedom back, I can see how fustrating it would be back then being a woman and not voting for an actual carring president such as J.F.K or F.D.R.

 As for independence that you say that we gained, what independence is that? That a woman nowadays have to work two jobs, leaving their children to fend for themselves or with a babysitter who is almost as young as them, to work 40+ hours a week at 8.50 an hour that sounds like hell, not independance, and if they are lucky due to the economy and they a job that it‘s full time? When infact rent is doubled over by the amount they make????

 Single parent households?

    Maybe common now but is it right for the child? Which ( I am from a broken family so I know first hand what the end results can be) leaves the child feeling inadequate and having serious abandonment issues. Now days it‘s a fad to get divorce and being married for 12 years even is a wow thing, while back then if you talk to the majority of older adults who lived then, they had stayed married to work through their problems, we find that diovorce is a quick fix. Things don;t go your way? DIVORCE! And now it‘s a fad to allow grandaprents to raise the kids when they should have been retired.

 I would gladly give up my ‘ indepenance‘ to live a decade ago especailly if independance is just a ****ty end of a stick and a lose term being thrown around .

Prescription medication for depression ( which btw is on the rise now more than ever and if we‘re so happy more now than back then ...then why such an increase?)

 I have to admitt I am slightly amused to see that you catagorized all women who do not work are gold diggers. Excuse me, I am a mother of two, and guess what?????

 I stay home.

My husband pays the bills because I wanted to provide my kids with an oppertunity to have a full time parent instead of relying on a babysitter to raise my kids. I am by all means not a gold digger and that was a very ignorrant thing to even state. I don‘t want to work right now, eventually I will, but right now I am reserving time for my kids , a missed art, because it‘s sad that t.v commercails have to remind parents to slow down and spend quality time with their kin,  and that there shows something.A lack of family foundation.And some of us people have had to raise our siblings when we were ALOT younger and like myself, I am tired of being ‘ independant‘ and would for once be taken care of while taking care of and nurture my own children.

 I am not saying that all circustances are this way.

 And i;m not really into romance novels ( sorry to bust your bubble on that one too in trying to generalize all women) but there are some of us " gold diggers" who do like to read actual novels, infact I am readin one called Portrait of a Killer ( non fiction btw) Jack the Ripper by  Patricia Cornwell and by all means I do not expect my husband to be romantic unless it is a holiday and I would gladly return such romance ( if ever it does happen).

You speak of a woman‘s right to dream about goals, what if it is goals to be the best mommy her kids could have without the extra strain and hardships of the goverment and have the right to stay home, or have the father stay home and be the best daddy he can be? Is that such a bad thing? 

Being an at home mom should be a choice that is no longer offered by the goverment, how about independance to make that choice? As you see we are in a deep  recession how can any single mother be happy when the rent ( here in California) Is 1300- 1800 a month for a two bedroom two bath? To get on welfare IF the say that I am qualified ( btw they stated I didn‘t even if I leave my husband) is only 800 a month?What choice do some of us have but to co exist with our significant others to make ends meat? Where is the independance in that? 

Our grandmothers made the choice for idependance not knowing what the out come will be in 50 years, and now we as wemon are paying for it, the goverment is giving us mothers and women alike who wants to be home with our children ( heck even fathers) the middle finger, while feminists are calling it a revolutionary progress, see the irony?

And sorry but it‘s not because we‘re trying to keep up with the Jones as you so balantly put it but we women are over worked, over stressed ,

having it all...and having to do it all?

Yes without any support ,...you are correct on that..

Palm/ face

"Are you going to say that there are more family structure and foundations today then it was a decade ago?"

Well, being that a decade ago would have been the 1990‘s, I wouldn‘t say that there is any less family structure now than there was then. 

 "There are more juvis and minors in the court system then there ever was due to the lack of supervision, more children in foster care, and babies being dumped in trash cans or children being left at bus stops.12 year olds are having sex already and starting their periods more now than ever and can go without parental obligation to any clinic to get the morning after pill or birth control without fear of consiquence, there may of had been severe consiquence for getting pregnant while not married or due to an affair back then,, but it was feared by moral standards not only by actual parental guidance ( not saying that is the case in all families back then, some were infact abused or abussive).Rape being an exception."

It is all too convenient to blame this phenomena on single parents.  We have several factors at work here.

There is no question that things have changed considerably since the 1950‘s.  There is no question that mores have changed - and what is acceptable to discuss now is something that would have been out of the question back then due to censorship.  Since I was born in the 50‘s, and was a young girl when JFK was President, I experienced the "history" firsthand.

Yep - there are 12 year olds having sex.  I agree - it‘s awful.  But in 1969, a 10 year old girl had a baby and ended up in the news.  No, we probably didn‘t hear about it as often, but lots of kids were having sex - even back then.  Girls had to worry about "getting a reputation."  Having sex - one time - would brand a girl as "easy" and a "whore."  The common thinking of the time was that a boy wouldn‘t "respect" her after that.  If a girl got pregnant, she "had to" get married, and more than a few "shotgun weddings" took place back then, because surely, you wouldn‘t want the child to end up being a "bastard."  Yep - sounds like the good old days to me!

We have birth control today.  Many different varieties.  None of them perfect, to be sure, but back in the 50‘s, all you had was the diaphragm, and condoms.  I personally am thankful that there are these options.

The Pill came along, and that freed a lot of women because it effectively prevented pregnancy. 

And yes, I was in my teens during Roe vs. Wade, and although I, myself, would never choose abortion, I am glad to see it legal - being performed in hospitals and clinics.  In the 50‘s & 60‘s, women went to "backyard butchers" and many hemorrhaged and died.  When I was "unexpectedly" pregnant, I chose to keep my baby, but at least I had a choice.

I‘m not saying that there aren‘t a lot of bad parents out there.  I‘m not even saying that there aren‘t a lot of people who shouldn‘t be parents.  But there are still good families. We aren‘t the ones you read about in the headlines.  "Good news" is boring.  I‘m a single mom, and I have many single mom friends who have all turned out good kids.  There were a lot of dads back in the old days that beat their wives and children behind closed doors, and molested their daughters, and there was no one for those families to call.  There weren‘t women‘s shelters.  Counseling wasn‘t something you did, because that meant you were "weak" or "crazy."  A lot of women were financially dependent on their husbands, which forced them to put up with "anything" - while pasting smiles on their faces, and giving dinner parties and trying to look "pretty" to go to the store.  There was an awful lot of "keeping up appearances."

There was an awful lot of hypocrisy back then.

 "Feminsim provided? If you are talking about voting for presidents that do nothing for this country then I will gladly offer that freedom back, I can see how fustrating it would be back then being a woman and not voting for an actual carring president such as J.F.K or F.D.R."

I was reading your post about joining the military.  Who do you think you‘re going to be working for?  Who gives your marching orders?  The President.

Voting is one of the few rights you have in this country.  With the strong feelings you apparently have on a lot of issues, I‘m surprised that you don‘t think it‘s important.

"As for independence that you say that we gained, what independence is that? That a woman nowadays have to work two jobs, leaving their children to fend for themselves or with a babysitter who is almost as young as them, to work 40+ hours a week at 8.50 an hour that sounds like hell, not independance, and if they are lucky due to the economy and they a job that it‘s full time? When infact rent is doubled over by the amount they make????"

There is no question that the world is really unkind to poor women with children.  I know all about this - and have experienced it firsthand.   You would be preaching to the choir on this one.

Because I was raised to expect to work my whole life - married or single - I only worked at a minimum wage level for a few years.  I did not have children at that time, which helped.  It didn‘t take me long to see what I needed to do to progress.  I paid my dues.  I worked hard to prove myself, to acquire new skills, to get out my shorthand book, and to take on challenging assignments.  I got promotions.  I learned to deal with politics, and I learned to take a lot of **** with a smile on my face.  I learned computer programs on my lunch hour.  I had husbands who wanted me to quit working, but the problem was, their incomes were not enough to support the family and pay all of our bills.  I was the family breadwinner for a long time.

By the time I had kids, I had moved up, which made things a lot easier.  By the time, I was having babies, I would have loved to have stayed home, but circumstances didn‘t permit it.

Had it not been for my job, we wouldn‘t have had health or dental insurance.  And even if I have complained about working over the years, it has provided a lot of stability for my family.

With the economy, and with the recession (that has existed for a very long time), even with a good income, it is very hard to make ends meet.  It is damn tough to raise kids by yourself, no question about it.  And yes, I gave more than half my salary to a child care provider for quite a few years.

I paid for the best child care provider I could afford.  She was a homemaker in the neighborhood where I lived, and was with my children for 9 years. 

And as a single parent, I found all kinds of ways to make money to help us survive as a family, and my kids were part of all those efforts.  We did babysitting, pet sitting, housecleaning, bred horses (outside mares) to our family stallion, tc.  I typed college term papers, and even did a part-time stint at a halfway house for pregnant teens.  My daughters participated in all these activities, and they learned to be excellent workers themselves.

"Single parent households?

 Maybe common now but is it right for the child?"

I didn‘t set out to be a single parent.  I was married.  To a very abusive man with undiagnosed Bi/Polar Disorder.  I held the marriage together out of love and commitment to my family for the first 10 years, and spent the next 5 working on being financially free so that I could leave him.  He became so abusive, and yes, I divorced him.  And I will say, that being a single parent is 100 times better than being married to a bad man.

I would agree that under normal circumstances, being a two-parent household is ideal.  But only if the parents are "functional."  Raising kids in an abusive home inflicts far worse damage on children than a divorce.  And I know moms who have never married and are doing a wonderful job with their kids.  Good parenting can take place whether you are married or not.

"Which ( I am from a broken family so I know first hand what the end results can be) leaves the child feeling inadequate and having serious abandonment issues."

I, too, was a child of divorce.  My mom & dad split when I was 5 and divorced with I was 6.  My sister and I were whisked away to what we thought was a little "vacation" and ended up living there for 3 years while we saw very damn little of our parents.  That was traumatic as hell, and to this day, I have trouble saying "good bye" to anybody.  I grew up in 4 different households.  I understand about abandonment issues.  My mother, like yours, remarried and picked an emotionally abusive man.  She did us no favors.

Had your mother - and mine - put their children first, things might have been quite different.

"Now days it‘s a fad to get divorce and being married for 12 years even is a wow thing, while back then if you talk to the majority of older adults who lived then, they had stayed married to work through their problems, we find that diovorce is a quick fix. Things don;t go your way? DIVORCE! And now it‘s a fad to allow grandaprents to raise the kids when they should have been retired."

I agree.  Too many people don‘t take marriage seriously, and too many people end up getting divorced.  We seem to live in a "throw away" society where if anything becomes difficult or inconvenient, you just chuck it.  But there are marriages that can‘t be worked out, where the best thing for everyone involved is to walk away.  I will also say that a lot of the marriages I witnessed growing up weren‘t happy marriages.  I saw couples who lived in the same house, but more or less led separate lives and didn‘t even speak to each other.  I had an aunt who had non-stop affairs.  They may have stayed married, but I often felt they stayed married so that they wouldn‘t give up their lifestyle.  The truth was, many of them were miserable.

I think people need to show a commitment to all the things they do.  But life happens - **** happens - and if people are miserable with each other, it is better for them to divorce than to rip each other apart and/or cheat on each other.  Sometimes you can love someone and not be able to live with them.  I am very glad that there are "no-fault" divorce laws these days. 

"I would gladly give up my ‘ indepenance‘ to live a decade ago especailly if independance is just a ****ty end of a stick and a lose term being thrown around."

Independence is about self empowerment.  It‘s being able to make your own decisions and be responsible for your own choices.  It‘s knowing you can do things for yourself, and not having to depend on someone else to do it for you.  It‘s knowing you can take care of yourself.  It‘s having the freedom to decide what‘s best for you.

I think if I had listened to my "inner voice" all those years, I probably never would have ended up on this website.  I came here as a very angry woman.

"Prescription medication for depression ( which btw is on the rise now more than ever and if we‘re so happy more now than back then ...then why such an increase?)"

Good question!  For one thing, they have come to diagnose depression as an illness.  They have come to recognize that for some people, their serotonin levels are low, and that there really is such a thing as "chemical imbalance."  I have been depressed many times in my life, but I believe that most of mine was "situational."  For me, determination, perseverance and a more positive attitude was enough to help me overcome my circumstances.  But "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" doesn‘t work for everyone.

They know more about Bi/Polar Disorder now, and ADHD.  These things have always existed.  It is just that people used to either be put in institutions, or went to prison.  They are diagnosing and treating these disorders earlier in life.

But then I suppose there are people who think it‘s intolerable to ever be sad, and think that popping a pill will fix it.  I don‘t know - I can‘t judge. 

Popping pills is not a new phenomenon.  You‘re forgetting that in the 50‘s, women were taking sleeping pills as a matter of course.  Diet pills were pure amphetamine and were prescribed by many doctors.  Drugs - and drug addiction - existed back then and there was no "rehab."  It was just as common to have a housewife closet alcoholic.

I think it‘s positive that people are more open about some of these things, because more people are seeking help.  When movie stars are going to rehab., a lot of the stigma has been removed.

"I have to admitt I am slightly amused to see that you catagorized all women who do not work are gold diggers. Excuse me, I am a mother of two, and guess what?????"

I didn‘t.  Since you argued with me in other posts, you already know that I take exception to people categorizing all women as gold diggers.  I was illustrating that "gold digger" mentality comes from women who are not willing to work themselves.

A stay at home mom definitely WORKS.  There is no tougher job than running a household and keeping up with the demands of children, especially if there are babies and toddlers.  Working for a "wage" is not superior to being at home raising a family.  I have enormous respect for stay at home mothers.  The stay at home mom is not who I am calling a gold digger. 

I think we‘ve all known a few of those kind of women.  They‘re looking for rich husbands to support them. If they were independent, they‘d be out doing it for themselves.

"I stay home."

Good for you!  I mean that sincerely.

"My husband pays the bills because I wanted to provide my kids with an oppertunity to have a full time parent instead of relying on a babysitter to raise my kids. I am by all means not a gold digger and that was a very ignorrant thing to even state. I don‘t want to work right now, eventually I will, but right now I am reserving time for my kids , a missed art, because it‘s sad that t.v commercails have to remind parents to slow down and spend quality time with their kin,  and that there shows something.A lack of family foundation.And some of us people have had to raise our siblings when we were ALOT younger and like myself, I am tired of being ‘ independant‘ and would for once be taken care of while taking care of and nurture my own children."

You are lucky that you have a husband who is willing to work hard and support his family, and you are lucky to be able to spend time at home raising your family.  I wish I had had the opportunity to do the same.  Every spare moment I had, I spent with my kids, and those were the best times of my life.  They still are.  It sounds to me like you have your priorities in order, and I respect that.

"And i;m not really into romance novels ( sorry to bust your bubble on that one too in trying to generalize all women) but there are some of us " gold diggers" who do like to read actual novels, infact I am readin one called Portrait of a Killer ( non fiction btw) Jack the Ripper by  Patricia Cornwell and by all means I do not expect my husband to be romantic unless it is a holiday and I would gladly return such romance ( if ever it does happen)."

You may not be like all women.  Nor is "romance" my only interest.  I read John Grisham, Taylor Caldwell, tons of non-fiction, and numerous biographies.  But I think enough of us have been influenced by this - judging by the popularity of such great films as Titanic, Gone With the Wind, An Affair to Remember, etc.  There wouldn‘t be "chick flicks" and romance novels if so many women weren‘t obsessed with it.  Even on this website, almost all of our conversations are about men, marriage, relationships.  Women focus on romance far more than men do.  I‘d be willing to bet more of us watch soap operas than men do.  Romance - and sex - sell.  Many of us were raised to believe we‘re nothing without a man, and that our life is "incomplete" unless we have a partner.

And again - I did not call you a gold digger.

"You speak of a woman‘s right to dream about goals, what if it is goals to be the best mommy her kids could have without the extra strain and hardships of the goverment and have the right to stay home, or have the father stay home and be the best daddy he can be? Is that such a bad thing?"

Not at all!  But something to consider is:

1)  Men die younger than women;

2)  One in two marriages ends in divorce;

3)  The chances are better than average that a woman will end up alone at some point in time.  If that‘s the case, are you prepared?  If you are set up financially to support yourself and pay your bills, it is not a problem, but few people are if something like that happens.

I think being a good mom is the most important job that any woman will ever have.  It isn‘t just stay at home moms who feel that way. 

"Being an at home mom should be a choice that is no longer offered by the goverment, how about independance to make that choice? As you see we are in a deep  recession how can any single mother be happy when the rent ( here in California) Is 1300- 1800 a month for a two bedroom two bath? To get on welfare IF the say that I am qualified ( btw they stated I didn‘t even if I leave my husband) is only 800 a month?What choice do some of us have but to co exist with our significant others to make ends meat? Where is the independance in that?" 

You‘d be preaching to the choir on this one.  I know all about this from firsthand experience.  Been there/done that with being in a dysfunctional marriage, not qualifying for public assistance, and having more money going out than money coming in.  And I know things are really bad in California. 

And if you are not happy with your husband, wouldn‘t it be nice to feel like you had the choice to leave him? 

I know about this too.  It took me 5 years to get out of a really bad marriage.

"Our grandmothers made the choice for idependance not knowing what the out come will be in 50 years, and now we as wemon are paying for it, the goverment is giving us mothers and women alike who wants to be home with our children ( heck even fathers) the middle finger, while feminists are calling it a revolutionary progress, see the irony?"

You & I also made the "choice" to marry the people we did, to have children, and to do what we are doing now.  We could have just as easily made different choices.  I don‘t think that blaming the government helps anything.

There are also women doctors, women lawyers, women court judges, not to mention female dentists, female veterinarians, female truckdrivers, and female entrepreneurs.  Most small businesses are owned by women.  I work in state government, and the majority of top level executives today are women. 

Has it turned out perfect?  No.  It‘s created some whole new problems as well as new opportunities.  That is true of anything.

Personally, I am delighted that my daughters have the opportunity to do these things if they really want to.

"And sorry but it‘s not because we‘re trying to keep up with the Jones as you so balantly put it but we women are over worked, over stressed."

Most of us are overworked and over stressed.  Once again, you missed my point.

What I was referring to is that many women have unrealistic expectations of what life is supposed to be like, and we tend to compare ourselves to other people.  I am saying that when we do that, we are always going to be unhappy, because let‘s face it - there is always going to be somebody thinner, smarter, prettier, richer, who has a bigger house, a better job, etc.  A lot of times that leads to "keeping up with the Joneses."  I didn‘t say you were.

"Having it all...and having to do it all?"

We agree on this.

And finally - when you talk about how people don‘t have a right to judge, you are nostalgic for an era where everybody "judged" everyone else for everything. 

I miss "Leave it to Beaver."  I miss being able to sleep on the lawn, out under the stars.  I miss leaving my doors unlocked.

But ya gotta admit - the Internet, cell phones, etc., are pretty darn nice.

Rhiannon:

Ah bull****...  What makes you think that women were so happy then?  

The survey and the charts on the article. Have you even read it ?

The feminist movement was by no means perfect, and did not provide the "eternal happiness" that many of its proponents claimed it would - but it did A LOT to provide opportunities for women.  I, for one, am delighted that women today have options to be more than teachers, secretaries, and nurses.

That is one of the points of the article. Women have all that, but it seems that it did not made them happier, while men seem to more happy.

Single parent households are pretty common nowadays, and they are just as "pro family" as anyone.  Not all of us are hitting the bars, and leaving our children.  There are plenty of mothers out there who have been both "mother and father" to their kids. 

I think taht the fact that there are women who NEEDS to be mother and father(I think that when you said father here, you mean merely a provider, right ?) it‘s already a sign of things that are wrong. My mother and father BOTH work, and both taked care of me, and that is not because of feminism or anything, but because they need. And none of them have a extra burden, because it‘s all shared. I heard somewhere in an article, that married couples, are much more successfull in having a stable life, and saving money, twice as much more than single women and men.

 And your children won‘t be perfect.

My mother would disagree with you on that one...

Most people are as happy as they make up their minds to be.

Happiness is a state of mind. Even if you are in the middle of the trash, you might be happy, while there are billionaires, models, so on and on, who can‘t be satisfied with what they have. But I think that the main point of the article, is that men when they age they get happier, as they get more successfull in their lives, things start happening to them, while with women, their peak is around 20-30. After that, their looks fade, together with the intense social life, the children grow up and go away, so an empty space appears and wont disappear for the rest of their lives.

I didn‘t set out to be a single parent.  I was married.  To a very abusive man with undiagnosed Bi/Polar Disorder.  I held the marriage together out of love and commitment to my family for the first 10 years, and spent the next 5 working on being financially free so that I could leave him.  He became so abusive, and yes, I divorced him.  And I will say, that being a single parent is 100 times better than being married to a bad man.

I would agree that under normal circumstances, being a two-parent household is ideal.  But only if the parents are "functional."  Raising kids in an abusive home inflicts far worse damage on children than a divorce.  And I know moms who have never married and are doing a wonderful job with their kids.  Good parenting can take place whether you are married or not.

While I would agree that 1 good parent is better than 2 bad ones, I think that thinking singe mother hood is simply fault of abusive partners is to be completely delusional. The fact is, young men and women are having sex earlier, with little or no responsibilities. The result is SINGLE mothers, who aren‘t or ever will be married. I don‘t have statistical data to back me up on this, but I am sure that if you look at the average age people started to have sex a few decades ago was way later. And today it is very rare to people to wait until marriage. Those probably are the main reason for the increase in singlemotherhood in the few decades. In my country, Brazil, Abortion is not legal, so if you get pregnant, you have no choice but to have the kid. Statistics have shown that only in the last decade, singlemotherhood increased 20%. As in many cases I am witness, marriage is not even an option on the majority of cases.

But ya gotta admit - the Internet, cell phones, etc., are pretty darn nice

But they can make you happy ?

There are also women doctors, women lawyers, women court judges, not to mention female dentists, female veterinarians, female truckdrivers, and female entrepreneurs.  Most small businesses are owned by women.  I work in state government, and the majority of top level executives today are women. 

The majority of top level executives are women ? Do you have a source to back up that claim ?

As far as I know, not only women are minority bu tthey earn less too:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/03/news/newsmakers/mpwpay/index.htm

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9137710/Why_high_tech_needs_women_executives

Ah bull****...  What makes you think that women were so happy then?  

"The survey and the charts on the article. Have you even read it ?"

Yes, I read it.  Survey instruments are as useful as the research analyst who conducted them, and on the population group they surveyed.  And that is also dependent on how the questions were worded, whether the questions were yes/no, multiple choice, what options they had to answer the questions, and what "mood" they were in when they answered them.  We run surveys and do data collection in my job, and they are not fail-proof.  That is why there are so many different kinds of surveys. 

The feminist movement was by no means perfect, and did not provide the "eternal happiness" that many of its proponents claimed it would - but it did A LOT to provide opportunities for women.  I, for one, am delighted that women today have options to be more than teachers, secretaries, and nurses.

"That is one of the points of the article. Women have all that, but it seems that it did not made them happier, while men seem to more happy."

As I said before, feminism created new opportunities, but with new opportunities come new problems as well.  There is no denying that.  Women are able to do more things, but they also have more responsibility, which means added stress.  If you work outside the home, and have a family, you have to be a master at juggling, and it isn‘t easy.  But most who are doing it are doing it successfully. 

Re. happiness.  Who measures this?  I think it‘s a pretty subjective thing.  It ebbs and flows - all the time. 

We all grumble - no matter what our circumstances.  There isn‘t a mother alive who doesn‘t have a "Calgon take me away!" day.  Does that mean she doesn‘t love her children?  Not at all. 

If you were to take away the jobs of all these women and plunk them back in our homes, I think they‘d be seeing their circumstances in a completely new light.  The way things are today is the way that younger people have always known them.  Hence, this "nostalgia" for the way things used to be because they didn‘t live it.  A lot of it was a myth. 

I had the 1950‘s mother.  I know how things were then.  There was a lot of repression!

I was also there during the turbulent 60‘s, Viet Nam, and the beginnings of the Women‘s Movement, and was voting during the time of the ERA.  A lot of the "radical politics" challenged the way people looked at things. 

Re.  Happiness of men.  Perhaps feminism has freed men considerably in many ways, too. 

Single parent households are pretty common nowadays, and they are just as "pro family" as anyone.  Not all of us are hitting the bars, and leaving our children.  There are plenty of mothers out there who have been both "mother and father" to their kids. 

"I think taht the fact that there are women who NEEDS to be mother and father(I think that when you said father here, you mean merely a provider, right ?) it‘s already a sign of things that are wrong. My mother and father BOTH work, and both taked care of me, and that is not because of feminism or anything, but because they need. And none of them have a extra burden, because it‘s all shared. I heard somewhere in an article, that married couples, are much more successfull in having a stable life, and saving money, twice as much more than single women and men."

You were very fortunate to have both mother and father to share the responsibility of raising children.  That is the best possible scenario for all families.  And yes, they are more successful in maintaining a stable life, saving money.  Why wouldn‘t they be?  There are two people doing the job.

I am not saying being a single parent is more desirable than being a married one.  I started out married, too.  But life happens, and sometimes staying with a bad partner is really destructive to everyone involved - especially the children - and when that happens, you have to be brave and make a hard choice.  All I am saying is that if you have to make the hard choice, you can do it, and kids can turn out okay.

When I say "mother and father" I am referring to the single parent who is "doing it all" for their kids.  Is it desirable or what‘s best for the kids?  Probably not.  I think my kids would benefit from a loving and devoted dad who was really there for them.  He chose not to be.

Maybe what we really should be looking at are the "absent fathers" in these situations.  Why are so many of them abdicating responsibility for their kids?  We wouldn‘t need public assistance or child support enforcement if all the dads that are out there assumed responsibility for their children. 

And in some situations, it is the "mother" who is out to lunch, and abdicates the responsibility.  There are single dads being both "mother and father" to their kids, too! 

Instead of criticizing these people, we should be supporting them.

 And your children won‘t be perfect.

"My mother would disagree with you on that one..."

Perhaps, but I am pretty sure there are no perfect human beings on this earth - not even you.

Most people are as happy as they make up their minds to be.

"Happiness is a state of mind. "

My point, exactly.  It is largely a matter of counting your blessings, and adjusting your attitude.  You have a choice to see the glass as half full, or half empty. 

"Even if you are in the middle of the trash, you might be happy, while there are billionaires, models, so on and on, who can‘t be satisfied with what they have."

So true!  Money doesn‘t buy happiness, any more than a closet full of clothes, or a new car.  We can enjoy those things, but rich or poor, old or young, you will always have problems, and you will never be 100% content.  Real happiness doesn‘t come from our environment, nearly as much as it comes from who we are.

"But I think that the main point of the article, is that men when they age they get happier, as they get more successfull in their lives, things start happening to them, while with women, their peak is around 20-30. After that, their looks fade, together with the intense social life, the children grow up and go away, so an empty space appears and wont disappear for the rest of their lives."

I completely disagree with this.  A woman‘s peak might be 20-30 in terms of her "looks" but hardly her peak in terms of intelligence, experience, and wisdom.

If anything, women become more successful with age.  The "intense social life" often becomes less of an issue when women are raising families.  And as women age, their interests expand, and the quality of their friendships becomes more important.  There is less emphasis on "competing" and more on "relating."  Also, there is less emphasis on men.

It was women who coined the phrase "Life begins at 40" and there is truth in that!

And yes - "empty nest" is part of it - one of many transitions women experience - but that, too, opens new doors and new opportunities, and that is a time when many women go back to school, start a new business, take up new hobbies, or travel.  They have more time to pursue the things they like to do.    Life is less about "doing" and more about "being."  I can tell you that even with "empty nest" women DO adjust!

I am 53, and I am the most content I have ever been.  I am not at all unusual.  My life would be boring to many, but to me, it is peaceful.

I am not saying I like everything about the way things are today.  But I still see the glass that‘s half full.

And no - the Internet and the cell phone.doesn‘t "make me happy" but it does make my life easier, and I don‘t see myself going back to walkie-talkies.

I would agree that under normal circumstances, being a two-parent household is ideal.  But only if the parents are "functional."  Raising kids in an abusive home inflicts far worse damage on children than a divorce.  And I know moms who have never married and are doing a wonderful job with their kids.  Good parenting can take place whether you are married or not.

"While I would agree that 1 good parent is better than 2 bad ones, I think that thinking singe mother hood is simply fault of abusive partners is to be completely delusional."

Oh I see - a 25 year old male comes to a women‘s website for hurting and abused women and claims that leaving an abusive partner is completely "delusional."  You clearly have NO experience in this area.  What do you know - firsthand - about this life experience?  I said why I left - and why many women are single parents.  Not all of us had sex at 12, or have multiple "baby daddies."  If there wasn‘t so much domestic violence, there wouldn‘t be a need for legislation, women‘s shelters, and protection orders.

You‘re right that DV is not the only reason why some people divorce.  I can‘t speak for all.  I can only speak for why I‘m a single parent.  I know I am not at all unusual.

"The fact is, young men and women are having sex earlier, with little or no responsibilities. The result is SINGLE mothers, who aren‘t or ever will be married. I don‘t have statistical data to back me up on this, but I am sure that if you look at the average age people started to have sex a few decades ago was way later."

Yep - this is probably true.  And just as many of those kids having sex earlier come from two parent households.  And just as many boys are looking at sex like another "notch on their belt" as they always have.  Kids are exposed to way too much, too soon, and the media, and the clothing industry all sell sex.  When your pre-teen clothes have spaghetti straps and say "Hottie" on them, that tells you something.  It pisses me off that kids can‘t just be kids.

I - and a lot of other parents - found that it really helps to encourage kids to get into sports, animals, and school activities - and to encourage them to think about college.  We took a personal interest in our children, and encouraged them to think about their futures.  I provided horses, and they got into sports and FFA and showing livestock.  This led to job opportunities and college scholarships.

"Young people are no longer waiting until marriage."

True! 

"Those probably are the main reason for the increase in singlemotherhood in the few decades. In my country, Brazil, Abortion is not legal, so if you get pregnant, you have no choice but to have the kid. Statistics have shown that only in the last decade, singlemotherhood increased 20%. As in many cases I am witness, marriage is not even an option on the majority of cases."

I don‘t know anything about Brazilian law or Brazilian culture. 

As far as marriage goes, I don‘t think anyone should get married just because the girl is pregnant.  I do think fathers should take responsibility for their children - married or not. 

For me, the most effective form of birth control in my youth was babysitting.  I did a lot of babysitting to earn extra money, and found child care to be exhausting.  That was enough to deter me from wanting kids for a very, very long time.  I had no illusions about what caring for an infant or toddler was like. 

"There are also women doctors, women lawyers, women court judges, not to mention female dentists, female veterinarians, female truckdrivers, and female entrepreneurs.  Most small businesses are owned by women.  I work in state government, and the majority of top level executives today are women." 

"The majority of top level executives are women? Do you have a source to back up that claim?"

See the words "I work in state government..." Without revealing all of my personal information on the Internet, the agency I work for is managed by a woman, as are many of the members of her executive cabinet.  We have a female Governor.  I have a woman boss, who answers to a female division director, who answers to a female Assistant Secretary.  My job comes from a federal grant, and our federal officers are women, too.

"As far as I know, not only women are minority bu tthey earn less too:"

Women are far less of a minority than they used to be - thanks to feminism - but yes, they do still often earn less than men for doing the same job.

Thank you for a stimulating discussion.