WomanSavers.com Forum / CATCH A CHEATER / YOU can‘t SHAME ME!

Absolutely you are his victim BECAUSE of his profession. It doesn‘t matter whether sex was consensual or not. He crossed the "never do it" line there and I‘m sure it wasn‘t the first time.

I admire you for standing up for yourself and for not ripping apart two families. You‘ve carried a heavy load and your pain is obvious.

http://www.advocateweb.org/hope2/moreaboutexploitation.htm

You know something Music Lover...I thought the same thing for a long time...too long..because I took 100% responsiblity for us both...while he lied his way through it to keep his wife in the dark..and protect his reputation, image and massage liscence..So I acted according to the feeling that I had somehow asked to be hurt and have my trust betrayed by him.He knew I was off limits.he also knew I cared deeply for his image!

It was not rape.It was sexual misconduct.And you are right...I am shit outta luck for wasting so much time in not holding him accountable...and caring more about HIM than myself.He really did a number on my head to save himself..as he KNEW he was in the wrong...and would have lsot everything.I couldn‘t be vengeful even though I knew he would NEVER ADMIT TO SHIT!

Guilt about his family...didn‘t work....why would I mean anything to him either? I was a means to an end.That is a harsh reality when you pay someone $5000 and spent more than exhorbanant amounts more money in therapy and moving 1200 miles away so as not to RETALIATE for the pain I as caused!!! to escape his lies and get nothing but SHIT all over for the duration by ignorant people.

I say...what about what he did to me without so much as a THANKS FOR THE HEAD YOU STUPID GULLIBLE BITCH!?

Then..I found this site..because one of the managers in the NPD forums informed me that I had been Professionally exploited,just as she had...and our stories were very similar... She told me  that It was going to be VERY hard to make people understand what happened to me.that i was damned if I did and damned if i didn‘t report him.That I was his victim.That he was nothing but a Narcissistic Professional who was married and using that as a FRONT.It wasn‘t just his lies...it was a magnitude of Traits that came out as time went on.You said something about "if a woman is under 20.I can see how she might be stupid enough to fall for thier shit...and be vicitmized..well..I was 33...and miserably married at the time.and healing  sexual abuse victim..and a verbally abused wife..I was indeed DESPARATE....and unaware that he was not what he seemed.Yes..He also knew I was married..he wanted to possess me and made every attempt to do so.And yes...i was weak and fell prey.I never had intercourse with him.Yes..it happened in his office.Yes I went back 5 times to have sex with him.Yes..I felt like I was in love with him for all he had done to build me up over a 2 year period.

I did NOT mean to get so hurt...or hurt anyone...and i SACRIFICED MYSELF once I realized...he never even cared about me..he was simply USING(EXPLOITING) me for money...sex and PROTECTION from any and all consequences of his actions.To this day..10 years and counting...NO ONE KNOWS he cheated on his wife..and used hispostion of authority to do so...As my HUSBAND Said..."I am sure you were not the first of the last."

If you would be so kind to try and understand what happened to me and do wo without judgement...I am more than sure we can avoid any futrue unpleasantries! We do not need to be friends...but beng enemies is not going to help anyone.

I know that most people have no idea that this problem exists all around the world..but it is a problem...and it happens in ALOT of professions...and most women firgure it out ALOT sooner than I did and take these men to TASK.They out them to Ethics Commitees who deal with the disciplinary measures to STOP them from ruining the publics TRUST.I sat in the ADVOCATE web forums arguing that we were all adults...that we went to them..that we are responsible for our own pain...I got KICKED OUT for disagreeing with them. Most of the victims who frequent that forum have sought and FOUND JUSTICE..despite thier martial status..and despite the marital status of the Professional who exploited them. These people have a responsibility to thier clients..that is wholey different than other situations.And I never fell back on that...I went 4 years out of my way to take responsibility for going to see him...even though I knew I loved him...I paid enough for us both.

What upsets me most is that he never answered to anyone for what he did to either his wife or I.And that is my fault for not knowing...or being brave enough to hold him accountable.I didn‘t know I had any worth or rights by the time he was done with me.

But I do see why you have no patience for women who seem to intentionally hurt wives...I am not that women.

I BEGGED HIM TO INFORM HER.

HE Said...What I do is NONE OF HER BUSINESS.

That is jsut the tip of the ice berg..I can assure you.When he realized I held alot of power over his life...he began to BACK PEDDLE in such a demoralizing and humialting way..leaving me to fend for myself..alone.

I will NEVER forgive him for hurting me.He had no right to take ADVANTAGE of me let alone his wifes trust.

I knew he had no empathy heart or conscience after I heard that.

Maybe some day...you will read about or hear about another woman like me...who has sex with say..her doctor...or her therapist...or her chiropractor..and you can help her by passing this onto her and informing her that she is a victim of Foul play..NOT RAPE..and NOT AN AFFAIR..something even more confusing and heartbreaking..

And life devastating.I will never be the same thanks to my LMT‘s callousness and abuses.But at least....I managed to stop my hsuband from spitting in my face.

Take care..and know...I do not feel at all proud that I as so naive and so gullible..and trusting.to think that my best interest would not be threatened by a man without conscience n a position of authority.

I looked up to this man.He shit all over my life.And he NEVER cared about me or my innocent bystanders. EVER.

And no one even knows to judge him.But me..well..I put myself out on a limb..not for sympathy...but out of guilt...that I made it possible for him to potentially exploit other clients.Because I thought of it as an affair...I had asked for.

So...do someone a favor...anyone who see‘s this. and runs into a client/patient in this postion...Please.

I wish I had.

http://www.advocateweb.org/hope2/moreaboutexploitation.htm

I tis OK if you dont‘ get it...but PLEASE...don‘t not insult me anymore even if you don‘t.

I will leave if enough people do not want me here...but i have no place left to go.

Kristin

DEAREST MEANDNOT YOU...

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your jesture...and for your warning i found yesterday about people "stalking me".

I had t sit on my hands overnight..and still I came out swinging.

I doubt anyone understands my plight...or the fact that I know I have always had very unhealthy boundaries.That I DO ADMIT to my own faults.That I am VERY SORRY that I never informed his wife so she could make informed choices.

That I know too much about the harm Consciencelss people do to others without so much as a passing...OOPs...sorry.

I admit...i have sat, hidden from people and weeping for the past 8 years, trying to reach out for understanding and had my hand slapped away as if I am not worthy of suport.

I have undergone my own therapy to understand how and why i was so easily exploited.

I understand that I should have left my abusive husband BEFORE This went down.

I have made ammends to my husband as he has to me.

Thank you all the rest for your understanding.

Kristin

Well ya can‘t shame someone that doesn‘t know the meaning of the word.

I know you don‘t feel shame.  You have stated that already.  You have stated that you do not have any shame or regret that you cheated on your husband.

Is this "professional predator" a total asshole?  Absolutely.

So if he is an asshole for getting you to cheat on your husband...what does that make you for cheating on your husband?

So let me get this straight....you have stated to this forum in another thread that you DO NOT REGRET cheating on your husband with this other man....yet this other man is a "professional predator"..uh...am I missing something here?

And sorry...no asshole here...unlike you, I don‘t betray the ones I love.

And as far as my wife...all I have  to say about that is LMFAO.  She is with a guy now that came close to beating the shit out of her.  She started an affair with a guy that got her into the same thing she is now into....drugs.

She left a solid home, uprooted her kids lives...so she could party...and now she is getting hers in spades and probably will wind up in the hospital...all because she decided to mess around with a guy that you definitely would not approve of.

But hey, I could care less...she is not my concern anymore.

In answer to your questions about how I treated her...here it goes.

No..never turned her down for sex and I always initiated affection.

No, never hit her, spit in her face...called her any names, never treated her like she was beneath me and provided pretty much to her whatever I could afford and sacrificed personal goals for myself to make her happy and for the family.

No abuse, no degrading...nothing.  I suspect you wouldn‘t believe me because I am a man and I am full aware of how you feel about us bastards...but I don‘t care.

But back to the nature at hand.  I‘ve seen all your posts...and I must say, you really hate men.  And you never mentioned in your post about your husband being abusive....i suspect you are saying so now because you have been caught as a cheater.

Uh...no..there is no reasoning with YOUR ignorance.

I get that you feel you were "professionally exploited"...I GET IT....broken record there.

What YOU don‘t seem to get is that you don‘t think you cheated on your husband because this other guy "exploited" you.  I know you didn‘t say you cheated on your husband..in your mind it wasn‘t cheating.

But got a news flash for ya.....unless he drugged you, you did cheat on your husband.  PERIOD.

Again, I don‘t doubt that she was "professionally exploited"...I get that.

I now get that her husband is an alcoholic...that info was conveniently left out earlier when she declared she didn‘t regret cheating on her husband with the "professional exploiter"

And I don‘t care that her husband was an alcoholic.  She needed to leave him...not cheat on him.

She gave alot of advice on this forum to women who have been the victim of lousy cheating men...and rightfully so...however she acts as if all men are scum because of it when she herself has cheated.  So if she hates all the men so much for cheating(and rightfully so again), then what does it say about herself?

My issue isn‘t whether she was "professionally exploited"...my issue is with her hypocrisy and conveying that men are shit while displaying that hypocrisy.

Cheating is cheating...shes guilty as hell.

By her standards...sheezz...lets close up the shop.....

If a woman can get away with cheating...........why not a man too?

I feel sorry for her Husband!  Her lover dumped her...and he still took her back.

He sounds like a whipped puppy...more so than an abuser.

Her other theory....his abuse stopped because she had an affair?

Yeah yeah...thats how it works...............LOL!

But got a news flash for ya.....unless he drugged you, you did cheat on your husband.  PERIOD.

Well...i must say...they way he treated me felt like a drug..EVER heard of transferance? DOUBT IT. Or better yet...the emotional confusion of a betrayal bond? Or the build up after YEARS of being made to feel worthless.YES..he had alot of power over me.Sorry to say...thanks to being RAPED as a child..I had VERY weak boundaries.And thanks to his CHARM and SEDUCTION while i was on his table WEEKLY for 2 years...yes..I DID feel drugged.DRUGGED BY a one-sided... LOVE.,while i was separated and trying to legitimize ONE RELATIONSHIP..

I NEVER wanted two abusive men.

I wanted one who loved me and didn‘t hurt me.

I have news for you...since you STILL DONT GET IT YET!

Cheating to me is Maliciously,covertly and  intentionally HIDING your intentions to your spouce in order to get your needs met.....AND LYING to your spouse about your actions.Letting them live under false pretences.Playing them for FOOLS. Doing whatever you want without consideration for their choices.Keeping leverage in the marriage with LIES and omissions...Patronizingly keeping secrets that disallow a partner from making informed choices.

I was about BRUTAL HONESTY.And my husband may have hated it...but I did the RIGHT THING.I did not cheat..if I was proefessionally exploited.And if you dont‘ see it that way...I still didn‘t cheat..because he was PRIVY to the TRUTH Of me... AND OUT OF MY HOME .

That is what the MM LMT DIDN"T DO..I did NOT LIE. I did NOT CHEAT. I outted myself over FEELINGS that were seemingly mutual..PERIOD~

HE KNEW I had fallen for this LMT.I told him long before I ever found myself being used by HIM fo sex and money.and PROTECTION OF HIS IMAGE...and lisence.

.At the time it became sexual...My husband was living in an APARTMENT I got stuck paying for....while this all went down. I was NOT married in my heart.for years prior to all this...and he knew that.I left him over a liar who was NEVER sincere or clear about his intentions.I was used up and spit out and NEVER sought revenge.

Nor do you get what professional exploitation actually is by a Married Narcissistic Professional.But I would love for someone you know to have it happen to them...so you can SEE just how devastating it acutally is.

I think the problem is that we dont‘ agree on what cheating actually is.And you don‘t get that I had TOLD my husband to move out of my home,that I didn‘t love him anymore.That he had hurt me TOO much over the years...and i was seriously considering a divorce.That our sex life was practially non-existant. That I felt NOTHING for him anymore..That I was  DONE DONE DONE.WE WERE SEPARTED over the TRUTH I told  HIM about my lack of LOVE FOR HIM.I had STOPPED loving my husband years prior to being exploited for already written reasons!

He knew that.He also knew why.

That is the biggest difference  between me and the LMT...

HE LIED AND CHEATED and NEVER INFORMED ANYONE.

I told everyone  People actually told me..I was TOO ACCOUNTABLE. I was TOO PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE.

SHOOT..the LMT said.. LIE AND DENY...I said..NO FREAKIN‘ way.

I was more than willing to tell the TRUTH OF MY FEELINGS AND ACTIONS AND WAS MORE THAN WILLING TO PAY THE CONSEQUENCES FOR FALLING OUT OF LOVE WITH MY ABUSIVE HUSBAND...only to be played for a fool by an Married LMT.

You are really a bit slow.Or just DEAD set on shaming me..I take it your WIFE felt no shame...But that irked ya‘.

She must have completely blind sided you.I am sorry that happened to you.But really...when will you stop projecting all your hatered towards her onto ALL situations that involve cheating? By my definition.

I NEVER did that to my husband.If anything..he didnt‘ want to know.

And one of the reasons he came back is because I couldn‘t find it in my haeart to PUNISH The LMT and force him to be accountable..so I couldn‘t tell my h the details.an dhe asked NOT TO KNOW THEM.....but he was fully aware that I had been exploited.He just didn‘t know the EXTENT that it was the LMT‘s fault I was broken.

He wanted to pretend our marriage was fine...to this day...that is his M/O.

Guilt, fear,obligation,denial and lies are what HURT MARRIAGE.

But I can assure you..LIARS WIN.

Because i know for a fact...that the LMT NEVER had to go through the hell of JUDGEMENT, consequences...let alone separations..He as NEVER called a whore or a slut or told he had asked for it.He never lost his sense of worth, his home, his comfort zone over me...he lost NOTHING.

But I am still wasting my time sitting here defending myself?

WTF!

BECAUSE HE IS A LYING,Omitting, Duplicitous, CHEAT WHO Used his profession to PREY on married women..while he is MARRIED....and who INTERPERSONALLY EXPLOITS AND ENSARES ANYONE STUPID ENOUGH TO TRUST HIM.

Including his wife and EVERYONE who thinks they know him..

Get it yet?

THEY BOTH TOLD ME I WAS BRAVE to be HONEST about my feelings..and separating. The problem was....I didn‘t know what the hell had happened until I was trhough not one but 2 separations.

Niether of them had the BALLS to speak the truth let alone treat me with any respect or care...and I was supposed to FIX IT ALL ALONE.

Too bad I was honest about having an affair..when I was professionally exploited though.

I recently bought a book written by the President of the AMA...in which is states..

When trying to explain this type of situation to a husband..the best analogy is that your wife has been a victim of a crime...and you are a secondary victim.

In my case...thanks to an already horrible relationship with my husband..just made it all the easier for my perp to exploit me.

But whatever...I don‘t want to or need to keep explaining to you what happened...as you will only EVER be able to see that I was a whore for cheating on my husband..because that is how you see your wife.

I swear...she must have had a REASON.

I know I would have NEVER chose to lie and deny...

I HATE secrets.thanks to a childhood laced with LIARS!!!!!..and that is the biggest reason I HATE THE LMT.

HE IS A LIAR.He is an Exploiter. He is harmful to all he knows.

And he made me pay for his lies and choice to victimize me knowingly....alone.

HE TOLD ME AND ONLY me...that he knew he was repsonsible for all...and he thanked me for not ruining HIS LIFE.

He will get his.I have no doubt.

Live by the lie..die by the lie.

There is NO pink elephant in MY BED!

And really...what the hell difference does my experience make to you?

Is it your personal responsibility to SHAME people?

It‘s a long fall off that HIGH HORSE you know!

ARE YOU THE CHEATING POLICE?Then get your facts straight..

 IF you can see past your own issues.OK?

Ramble On

WOW...Music Lover...THAT was really big of you!

And to do your response justice...I am going to force you to endure a long post...sorry ahead of time.

I totally can accept your apology.I am not here to meet enemies!

I know it is hard to understand.I hardly understood it myself.It took a long time to figure all this out...and I still doubt myself.

From the research and therapy I have sought out to help me understand him..myself and both of our reactions to eachother...I can only say this...

1.A massage therapist is no less bound to Codes of Ethics and standards of practice that keep thier clients sexually and emotionally safe than a Psychotherapist.If you ever have the chance...Check out..The ETHICS of TOUCH...by Ben Benjamin....He wrote the book to teach Massage Ethics and it is mandatory in all massage schools thanks to the high volume of Unethical massage therapists who are being reported.Not to mention...all the other professions who are bound to regulations.It is my best validation after all the self doubt ,the blame and shame I have endured in the aftermath...and the forum shamers.. to date.

2.When i walked into that office...i was very vulnerable thanks to an abusive marriage.Thanks to multiple sexually exploitive siuations that riddled my past.My radar for trustworthy and sincere people was totally off kilter.Not to mention..the ability for some people to  CON others is somewhere between 1 and 25 people we don‘t always see coming.

.i tended to pity others easily, and fell for many a Con others would see coming a mile away. I don‘t doubt enough.I can be truly overly empathetic to others.Pretty much a codependant...myself.

3.Thanks to those years of sexual abuse...I couldn‘t differentiate between love and sex.I have also found that people who are abandoned...and sexually abused have a litany of reasons for self destructive behaviors,not to mention...alot of self hate.self blame and shame that belongs to thier abusers...but which they shoulder for them.I have always been way too self sacrificing...and easily taken advantage of by others.This was the FIRST time...I thought...I DO DESERVE TO BE HAPPY.He is RIGHT!

Then...i sat for years...completely clincially depressed.Some would call it PTSD.I should have been on meds thanks to this...I declined.

4.From what I have read about long term sexual abuse symptoms...one of them is that victims often find themselves in similar situations..we are vulnerable to sexual exploitations.....and in some ways...subconsciously re-inact the past with the hopes for a different outcome.This guy actually looked a bit like my mexican abuser.

I swear...he said some of the same things in the aftermath that my childhood abuser did.Such as...when I told him I would tell his wife what he was doing behind her back.....He said..

"What good would that do you?"

As in...no one would BELIEVE YOU.

This man ONLY wanted me because I was totally unavailable to him.

I became a challenge.He convinced me that my husband didn‘t deserve me.

I was easy prey and he knew it and took full advantage of it.

He told me he loved me.And i believed him.

As for going back...By the time it actually took place...I was beyond in love...I was betrayal bonded to him.That is how i see it based on my understanding of exploitive relationships.

I had been betrayal bonded to someone my entire life..so this felt normal to me.Most women and men who find themselves in this type of siutation are married..and they stay for years having sex with professionals.

I know it is hard to imagine...but when I was in the Advocate web forum..I found that most victims of this...had been sexually abused in childhood.

We are the most vulnerable people walking.And somehow...people devoid of Empathy..seek us out...

I just want you to understand..I am VIGILANT NOW.

I would never let this happen to me again.

I did blame myself.As most victims do.That is why he got off scott free.And also ...why his wife and clients are still in jeopardy.

I could see getting revenge when I seemd to ask for it.I went 4 years out of my way to make SURE...I paid in full for my own STUPIDITY.

Only to find out...I wasn‘t the fool...I was fooled.

I don‘t think, no, I know I could never let anyone do that to me again.

You know something..I dont‘ remember ever getting involved with a known exploiter.They don‘t win you over with meanness and cruelty.They win you over with lies.

Even the LMT asked me to "Not hold his lies against him."

By then...my life was in shambles thanks to his lies.He had alot of nerve and very little empathy for anyone.I was SHOCKED by him on every single level.

the thing is...they all start off like charming...seduction rescuers then they change.And they use every trick in the book to get thier own needs met.then they back peddle leaving you standing there looking like a fucking idiot for trusting them.They dont care what happens to you...they have hidden agendas...and do what they want.....despite what it will do to others.This man idealized, devauled and discarded me..and I felt and was totally abandoned.He made me feel special...only to turn around and make me feel worthless...and i know...no one can MAKE YOU FEEL anything...But I have to say...he told me what I wanted to hear...to get me to let my guards down so he could get what he wanted from me.And yes...I let him...and that, in the end...is my fault.Because I didn‘t have the ability to say no.I never did.

I actually went back to him to find out WHO THE HELL HE WAS beneath that mask of kindness,after he just vanished as if I was noone to him...he was in serious self protect mode after those 5 times...and he was trying to manipulate me into SHAME AND SILENCE...that is why when someone like True Blue does that...it triggers a deeply ANGRY part of me still.When someone calls me a whore...I lose it.I came at this man with LOVE< CARE AND TRUST..and he betrayed me.

HE was a monster in disguise it turned out.And now...I can NOT dare think i will EVER know the difference.I do not trust my own judgement anymore.It seems i have no common sense.I have no way to justify my own actions. I did  the best  could with very limited life skills. Very weak boudnaries.Very mixed messages on his part...and very hurt feelings.

I can only stay to myself.Keep my vows, despite the fact that most of my needs go unmet.Accept that I am damaged goods for life...and never trust a male professional at his word again.

I learned the hard way...People are not ususally what they seem.

but...I wish I had had your sense of self protection ,boundaries and worth after my sexual abuses.I didn‘t.If anything...i was conditioned to accept abuse as if it was love.It must have been set in stone in my mind when my original abuser would hurt me and say..."I LOVE YOU".I got very used to thinking of love as abuse. As I said...had I came in here back when it was my husband doing me serious emotional damage...this might not have happened to me.

Repetitive pattems are hard to break..when you dont‘ even realize you have them.I do know now though.

I have been in this type of situation since my childhood.3 of my trusted High school"friends" put a quaalude in my drink when i was 16 and BET to see who could "pop my cherry". Well...it had already been popped at 8...but still....I was always SHOCKED when people would betray my trust...but found myself in one abusive relationship after another.Including that with my husband...whom i met when i was 19...and fresh out of an abusive childhood.It has been one tough road..and i know my reactions to others has been very self destructive.I have stayed for too long in them all.

I had a thought the other day.It makes alot of sense to me.

If a person has been raised without validation...and perpetually seeks validation...and someone offers it...and then takes it away...we all can find ourselves desparate enough to keep ourselves in harms way...hoping will we once again feel worthy of what they offered in the first place.

My lmt vaidated me for a long time...he gave me hope and strength and a sense of well being...without SEX.

Then he crossed all lines...and destroyed my sense of safety.

That seems to be the cycle.

Built ‘em up just to destroy them.

Some men get off on that type of power.This one most certainly did.

My first real boyfriend was a unknown Sociopath.I alomst wound up in jail thanks to his pathological lying.I never find out while it is going down that these people are out for themselves.That they didnt‘ actually carea about me...i was a means to an end to them.

I always think i am worth so much more...than to be decieved and abused though.So when the LMT told me...I deserved to be happy and respected..I felt safe with someone so caring.Big mistake it turned out.

This last one hit me hard and low..and i am still...after years...struggling to get up...and it seems...no matter how hard I try..there is always someone trying to put me down.

It feels so unfair to me to have been upfront and honest in my life...and been blamed for all....while he had no problem letting me be the fall guy to his Unethical choices.

It makes me sad.But when someone like you invalidates me...and then apologizes after I explain myself better...I feel better.I truly thank you for that.I know how hard it is for people who have been betrayed by someone they love and trust to get past thier anger.I totally understand that.I just think that we as women should try to understand eachother..because we have enough to deal with when it comes to how men treat us.I was kicked out of many a forum thanks to my anger.My defensiveness...and my directness, but I keep trying to help others..and myself through life.

Thank you fro sharing your experience with me.I know it was hard for you to recall.And even harder to live through and come to terms with.The thing for me is this.This man exploited my trust.He exploited my care.He used his position to make me feel SAFE and CARED about for 2 years.

This was not an overt monster.I the beginning...he was sweet and kind to me..and i needed someone like that in my life.This was done in a way that gave me the sense that I COULD let my guards down.This man didn‘t act as though he was trying to hurt me.He inspired me for a long time.I lost 30 lbs.

I felt HAPPY for once in my life in his care.

I became an amazingly motivated woman thanks to his influence.

My art grew in leaps and bounds.I did an entire senior clay sculpture show with him as my muse. 

He gave me the sense that he was not anything more than a kind person,a trustworthy and sincere man.But that was ME projecting my own traits onto him.He was....Albiet...a married professional who set out to use me up and discard me it seemed....who virtually hid his marriage.NO ring.No interaction with his wife.Kept us completely separate.Called me as though I was a friend asking for rides, we talked about EVERYTHING under the sun......the boundaries were blurred from day one.

Having been naked and vulnerable for so long...and pulled under his influence..and pushed away from my marriage thanks to my husbands need for control....truly clouded my judgement.

It was insidious and a type of grooming...I didn‘t feel the need to protect myself from, because he had gained my trust.

Kinda like the man who gives kids candy...and then abducts them.

As for the term victim...I am NOT proud to see myself as that AT ALL.But I know...some in situations even adults can and are victimized...and it has nothing to do with not being willing to accept personal responsibility..as I was and am more than willing...but i am also not afraid to admit that I was victimized..and I survived yet another sexual predatory man whom I was lead to believe was trustworthy within a professional setting.being a victim.to me has to do with the element of an unknown postion we find ourselves in,and harmed...

As for standing up for myself..I did....way too late..but I held hi actions over his head for a long time afterwards...all he had to say was..

MOVE ON AND GET OVER IT.

I about died again at his audacity.

He was one heartless individual.And I am so much more aware of so many things today...I can actually thank him for hurting me.

Strange...I know.But the truth.And that is all I ever do is try to speak and tell the truth..UNLESS...there are innocent bystanders who‘s lives depend on my silence.

Absolutely NO hard feelings!

I know most of how we all react to eachother comes from our own triggers.I know you are angry...at ow‘s.I understand that.

I just know...there are so many situations we couldn‘t begin to understand...and i just hate that these men leave us at eachothers throats...and walk away..unscathed by our pain.

And sorry...this is way too long..and I am RAMBLING ON!

BTW....that is in reference to a Led Zeppelin song.

It means....to keep moving.....despite the emotional obsticles, t a better life.

I wish you peace...and hope to not step on anyone‘s toes here...but I am also..not a ass kiss...for the mistakes of others.

I make my own...I can‘t hande the burden of shame of all ow‘s on my shoulders.

Hugs...Kristin

Music lover...

I just spent the better part of an hour...responding to you.I guess you should feel spared that it didn‘t post.SHIT! I hate that!I just wanted to say THANK YOU for your apology.I understand why you are angry at people "Like me".Also...I want you to know..i appreciate your honesty about your past.How you handled that horrific betayal...is the opposite way I did.I was all about learned helplessness...most of my life.And I can understand how and why you see things differently.We all come out of sexual abuse, abandonment of both paretns...N-Mothers......changed.

Sitting ducks Syndrome helped me understand my reaction and position in that office not to mention...my life...as this was not the first time someone had taken advantage of me in life..So did the fact that if not for betrayal bonds...I would have NEVER been able to care about anyone.

The thing is I think... dependant on how much help we get...and how we see ourselves...becomes how we live our lives.I was blamed for my own sexual abuse as a child.I saw myself as inferior to men my whole life.I had asked for it according to my mother,because I ALLOWED IT..I was 8. I never fought back.This situation was a re-enactment of sorts....and it re-victimized me deeper than when I was a child...because I SHOULD HAVE LEFT...and I felt overpowered by emotion.

I never said no to men.

I never had healthy boundaries.

I never felt worth of love or care.

I never had good judgement or common sense.

With all that going against me...and a horrible marriage.

I was doomed in his "care".

My life created the "perfect storm" for this man...to take advantage of my feelings...and postion.I went back...because by then...I was betrayal bonded to him.He had helped me break free from one abuser...and took me in as his need meeter.

Or is it MEAT NEEDER.

HAHAHAHA....shit....If I can laugh I am going to be ok..right?

I am really pissed that I spent all that time explaing some things to you......and it is gone now...But I do NOT have any hard feelings towards anyone...not even the man who left me holding the bag for his lack of Conscience...Ethics..AND morality.

I actually forgive him...as I know ...he was a product of his childhood..no less than I am.

I know my part.And I have paid for  us both...all alone.... IN FULL..

I dont‘ think anyone has a right to jduge or shame anyone...we are here to help eachother...get through some very hard situations...and I want to thank you for helping me.

Your apology meant alot.As did your honesty.I dont‘ even mind you questioning me...as long as it is not done with malicious intent.

WE are One.

But we all have a story to tell...and something to heal from here...so let‘s just say...

We are survivors...the lot of us...and we all made a mistake or two in our lives...for many reasons...and for some rationalizations...and for others...denials...but we can only try to improve ourselves...and that is just what I am doing here.

Trying to grow...and help others the best I can.

Take GOOD care of yourself...

Ramble ON.

ps...That is in reference to a Led Zeppelin song...It means to me..moving forward...despite emotional obsticles...but I do tend to blather on sometimes.Sorry.

You should have seen the LAST post..that didn‘t send.LOL

Musiclover....

I am not having muuch luck in posting to your questions...I WANT To explain.But it keeps messing up when i press send..I HOPE this one get‘s through!!!!!

I will. get back to you....I spent almost an hour responding..and lost the post.....but my 7 year old needs dinner...

I will up bright and early...and thanks you appropriately for your effort to be kind to me.

THANK YOU for at least TRYING to understand...and for your honesty.

Ramble on

Tiredmomma...

You are sooo right!!!!I didn‘t start this thread for any other reason than that I am tired of answering THEM!I am tired of being thier scapegoat.I am tried of MY morality being questioned. I am tired of of being looked down on for my manipulated choices.I am tired of being honest and being reamed for it.I am tired of being "on trial" by people who don‘t have CLUE ONE what it is to be professionally exploited.

I am NOT a victim anymore.I SURVIVED a horrendous situation or 10 in my life...and I am not going to bow down to ANY MAN ever again.

If I was not a victim, then NEITHER was Mr.True Blue.

What personal responsibility does HE TAKE for the demise of his marriage?

It must be nice to sit on a high horse...and judge other peoples choices..and morality...when you are SO DAMN PERFECT!.it keeps the focus off thier own mistakes and bad judgement.

I know what I did wrong.And why.

I know I should have divorced my husband FIRST..but when a man has you so enslaved to his demands...his control, his influence and his lack of care....it isnt‘ that damn easy to gather enough strength without an outside influence to bolster your confiidence and help you see...you are WORTH SO MUCH MORE.

The problem was...I trusted the wrong men.And they both burned me.

And neither of THEM took personal responsibility while I was suffering ALONE for my part.

My part being...a trusting client and an abused wife.

I don‘t give two shits about what True Blue thinks of me.He has no right to judge me.

I answered for all my choices.TO MY HUSBAND.

I offered myself up on a PLATTER in order to remind women to BEWARE the Professional, married...Narcissists of the world...

Other than that....I am way beyond being anyones victim..and I won‘t be abused,questioned, judged, or shamed in a forum either.

I say...lemme give ya‘all my LMT‘s phone Number...and you can jduged, question and hold accountable HIS lack of morality and ehtics,since NO ONE EVER FORCED HIM TO ANSWER FOR HIMSELF!

Fair is fair!

Ramble On (tired momma#2)

And sorry...no asshole here...unlike you, I don‘t betray the ones I love.

And as far as my wife...all I have  to say about that is LMFAO.  She is with a guy now that came close to beating the shit out of her.  She started an affair with a guy that got her into the same thing she is now into....drugs.

She left a solid home, uprooted her kids lives...so she could party...and now she is getting hers in spades and probably will wind up in the hospital...all because she decided to mess around with a guy that you definitely would not approve of.

So...you HATE her then? Is that why you attack every OW you can find in this place? Is SHE THE ROOT of all EVIL? Do women who betray DISGUST YOU? Do you feel entitled to bash and question and DOUBT ALL women who are not morally equal to you IN YOUR MIND?

THAT is not your right.You are entitled to hating  HER.THAT IS IT!

But hey, I could care less...she is not my concern anymore.

If THAT was the truth...then WHY ARE YOU STILL SO ANGRY? You are FAR from over it.That is all too obvious.But instead of taking your JUSTIFIED RAGE out on her...you do it her.Do you consider that a healthy alternative?

In answer to your questions about how I treated her...here it goes.

No..never turned her down for sex and I always initiated affection.

No, never hit her, spit in her face...called her any names, never treated her like she was beneath me and provided pretty much to her whatever I could afford and sacrificed personal goals for myself to make her happy and for the family.

No abuse, no degrading...nothing. 

So IF you were her  VICTIM then? WHERE IS YOUR COMPASSION!!!!

I suspect you wouldn‘t believe me because I am a man and I am full aware of how you feel about us bastards...but I don‘t care.

I do NOT hate all men.I hate men who abuse women, who betray women,who degrade woman,who RAPE women, who Exploit women, who talk down to women,who LIE to women, who degrade women, who leave women as thier scapegoats,who manipulate women, who use women as thier personal whipping posts out of hate for thier mothers, who HURT women,who judge women as though they are somehow SUPERIOR to women by thier very nature.I hate men with personality disorders!!!!!!!!!

yes..you are right...SOME MEN should be dropped off on an island surrounded by SHARKS...covered with predatory CATS...and offered NO SYMPATHY for thier transgressions against WOMEN!

I know you don‘t  CARE!!!!!!!!!!...you just enjoy looking down at women!To make youself feel SUPERIOR .

But back to the nature at hand.  I‘ve seen all your posts...and I must say, you really hate men.  And you never mentioned in your post about your husband being abusive....i suspect you are saying so now because you have been caught as a cheater.

OMG! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!! HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY HONESTY!

I realize at this point...NOTHING I say is EVER going to sink it.So...from this point on...i refuse to allow you to QUESTION ME or my intentions.

I am not even going to DIGNIFY THIS WITH A RESPONSE!

I dont‘ CARE if you believe me.About ANYTHING.

Ramble ON

You are a VERY WISE WOMAN...And if I follow anyones lead here...it will be yours...not just because you understand...but because I get the sense that you too have been victimized...and understand and feel compassion for those of us who have too.

I humbly THANK YOU for your understanding and compassion.I know from long term experience...that this situation MUST BE LIVED though for anyone to actually GET IT.I do have other support thankfully from a woman who went through almost the same exact situation...and SHE VALIDATES ME whenever I need it...But you will NOT find her in a place like this...allowing others to doubt her in anyway.Let alone question her victimization by a professional married man.Or re-victimize her.

She is much smarter than I.Maybe the problem is...i try to seek validation from unhealthy and unaware sources.and I need to STOP THAT.

I try so hard to     bring awareness to this issue...and all it does is make me feel as though I am reliving the nightmare daily.

I only want to help women here.I am not here for support.But I can‘t find a way to prove that I am CREDIBLE and RESPECTABLE with people Like True Blue constantly undermining me.I will GIVE UP SOON...I promise you that.

I do see a certain amount of understanding...but to keep being forced to PROVE myself...is wearing on me.I am tired.I am here only as a warning to women.Especially wives who can‘t seem to point the finger at the CLEAR AND RATIONAL choice to hold thier husbands accountable for the damage they do to both..thier families and Other VICTIMS.

NO one seems to get it, and i feel like I am wasting my time here.

so....in order to self preserve....I MUST hang onto what little I have in life...and forge on...with or without making people see what I am pointing at.And not feel at all responsible that they dont‘ heed my warnings...

because after all...they will only see me as a hypocrit...and question the validity of my claims.

I can‘t save anyone but myself.

I used to call myself..USAVEU2 in the npd forums..I remember you there. I think.

Without THAT knowledge...I would still be shaming and blaming myself for all he projecton onto me to save his own self image...let alone the image he portrays to this trusting followers.........

I know now....

I am allowed to be selfish in the name of self preservation.I have a right to have healthy boundaries.I have a right to expect NOT to have my trust betrayed and my body and mind abused.I never thought I had that right.It had been STIPPED from me as an 8 year old.

I read that you are affiliated with the NPD forums.Had I not questioned Sam‘s contradictory stance on victimhood...i would still be a member there.Narcissists HATE to have thier Authority Questioned.And I hate to be a blind sheep who follows a known Narcissist.Having started this in Healing process inTherapy...where my therapist suggested that I "just have a sexual relationship" with this LMT...on to Third party forums,because I DID take way too much personal responsibility for being HIT BY TWO MACK TRUCKS...that lead to Narcissism forums,then to Professional Exploitation forums then here...I can attest..BLAMING THE VICTIM is a past time of most.I am used to it.

But it still hurts and feel so re-victimizing..i continue to STAND UP FOR MYSELF.AS I never had the courage to do in the past thanks to men perpetually trying to keep me down.Kept me silent.Keep me humilated.Kept me shamed.

It is ALL thier own projection.I know that now..but for decades...I thought..

I am WORTHLESS.I have NO RIGHTS.I am always going to be someones VICTIM.Why do I DARE trust anyone? Because even though I have been through hell and back multiple times.thanks to the destructive issues men impose on women.....i still have HOPE that one day....

I will be  loved without having to PROTECT a man‘s dysfunctional choices,let alone HIS WOUNDED and broken ego, with my own life.

I did NOT OWE THAT MAN SILENCE! Let alone protection.

But thanks to being BLAMED as a child for my own sexual abuse...it came all too naturally.

Having had a "Sitting Duck Sydrome" working against me though out my life...thanks to having been sexually abused as a child..( I am a classice exaample of what happens when a child‘s is not given the RIGHT to her own boundaries.I NEVER fought back.I never felt anything but SHAME for "allowing people to hurt me".

.I have found myself easy prey to many a man.I take personal responsibility for the actions of others to a FAULT.And...without Betrayal bonds...I would NEVER have had anyone to love me.

Sometimes...life is VERY UGLY thanks to the limitations of others.

But in the end...i forgive them for all....because I know...they could NOT have acted in ways beyond thier own reactions to abusive childhoods.

I read recently that ALL narcissists were at one time...Victims.

I saw something seriously off about the LMT...slowly but surely the mask fell off...it scared the hell outta me.And I RAN as fast as I could to save myself....but not before...he had taken what little dignity and self respect I had left from my marriage.

I have cried for years over my trusting nature...and I SWEAR on my kids lives...I will NEVER "allow" someone to victimize me again.

I just hope I have found the line between caring too much about others...and not caring enough about myself.

I think my empathy has lead me into self destructive situations...because I feel so much pity for others...i fall for thier ploys like a child still.

And knowing that I will always be more vulnerable than the average woman who was not abused...I am hyper vigilant about my own self protection today.I do NOT TRUST BLINDLY ANYMORE.

I do NOT dare to believe a persons words over thier actions.

I do not trust male professionals.

I do NOT stay faithful to my marriage...I stay faithful to my OWN self preservation.

I have been conned and burned for the LAST TIME~

Ramble On

If you "get that I was profesionally exploited"

Then you would NOT continue to re-victimize me,question me  or doubt me in anyway.

Cheating is what he did.As he never informed his wife of his OWN indiscretions in USING a client under his CARE to get HIS NEEDS met outside of his marriage.

Exploiiting a client is what he did.

Lying and being a hypocrit is what he did.I outted myself needlessly thinking I was personally RESPOSNIBLE for allowing myself to BE professionally exploited. WHILE I WAS MARRIED.

I was a VICTIM TWICE OVER...and I realize..you can‘t see anything beyond your anger at your wife.That is not my problem.

You may claim you are laughing...but all your words scream..

I FEEL HUMIALTED...JOIN THE CLUB!

I did not "conveniently" omit anything. HE DID! He omitted everything..and to this day...his life is a LIE.Everything he touches turns to shit,me included, thanks to his Personality disorder.Thanks to his entitlement issues. Thanks to his inability to "handle the truth" as he put it towards the end.

I didn‘t feel I OWED YOU an explaination for my attitude towards exploitive people.I have courageously put myself on YOUR CHOPPING BLOCK in the hopes to bring awareness to a little known form of abuse.

Take it or leave it.

I have alot of insight into the mind of a cheater/exploiters/Narcissists and betrayal bonds..BECAUSE I LIVED IT!

.Partly because of how i played right into the hands of a Professional married Narcissist.Partly because of how long I tolerated being abused in my marriage...I know the dynamics...and if anyone WANTS TO HELP other women LEARN AND GROW AND EVOLVE OUT OF ABUSIVE situations..

IT IS I!

But had I known his personal dynamics, let alone mine... of the situation BEFORE I walked into that office an ALREADY broken women...I might have been able to discern the RISK FACTOR to my own well being..My own lack of healthy boundaries did NOT keep me safe as it would have most women... and my own CLIENT RIGHTS and choices under those specific circumstances.

When you place quotes around "professionally exploited" it means..YOU DO NOT GET IT.NOR DO YOU BELIEVE IT.

There are monumental differences in how I handled myself compared to him.

The biggest is that my husband is completely aware that I felt no regrets...for my part in trying to escape him...

And that my EX- LMT continues to live a lie at his wifes and my expense says EVERYTHING about the difference between TRUTH AND HYPOCRACY.

I have been taught along the way..that SILENCE PROMOTES SHAME.

I have nothing to be ashamed of.Nor regret.

Except having entered that office under the assumption that I was safe.

I hope you hear me loud and clearly!

I DID LEAVE MY HUSBAND.

He never even considered giving HIS wife an informed choice to leave him.

Nor did he EVER consider what he did to me as anything but WITHIN HIS RIGHTS and an ENTITLED Narcissistic MAN.

You really have to open you mind and your heart to ever comprehend how much more damaging it is for you to BLAME THE VICTIM over the Perp to be of any use to me.

I am DONE responding to your judgemental and patronizing posts to me.

The fact that I FELL PREY says alot about my inability to find a DECENT person in this world to NOT ABUSE ME.

And I must say...you have added yourself to that list.

Thanks for reminding me...why I don‘t dare trust men.

Ramble On

LOL...oh this should be stunning...just what am I guilty of Sandy?

You...are guilty of being ignnorant (unknowingly judging that which you obviously know NOTHING About)

Guilty of being VERY angry at your ex-wife.

Guilty of being self righteous.

Guilty of blaming the victim.

Guilty of sitting on a high horse of superior Morality.

Guilty  of not taking your own personal responsibility for PART of the reason your wife flew the coop.

Guilty of screaming VICTIM..as if you are the only one out here who is in pain.

Guilty of holier than thou judgement,and your own covert hypocracy.

Guilty of doubting ANYTHING that does not fit into your own agenda of blaming EVERYONE that does not agree with your take on things.

But...i think Sandy meant...

YOU swing your vote to find me GUILTY in your own little Trial of my morality.And guess what? That means nothing coming from a man who HATES WOMEN who do not OBEY your rules of conduct.

One little thing you forget.......YOU ARE NOT GOD!

And if I am guilty of a CRIME...I have PAID IN FULL.

And if anyone should be SWEATING JUDGEMENT DAY..

It is my ex-LMT.

HE IS IN for some serious condemndation.

I wonder WHY you have not ONCE taken HIS actions into consideration and pummeled HIM for what HE CHOSE TO DO TO ME AND HIS WIFE...without so much as a second thought.

If anything....you are minimizing HIS transgressions by solely BLAMING ME for my misinformed and conned choices.

But whatever....you are as thick a man as I have ever met on this journey...and i am NOT going to take ANYTHING you say personally...because that would make me STUPID!

Ramble On